Sleep and Fatigue
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Airline Pilot Sleep and Fatigue. Sleep as a skill. Risks of fatigue.
Accident - Colgan Flight 3407.
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Transcripts are approximate. Email us if you have any questions.Intro
00:00
Adam Sam sleep and fatigue. Yeah. Are you feeling well rested. I've never been so well, rested. This is not the right time due to. The pandemic I have never been more rested and probably less able to tell you about the effects of sleep and fatigue. Yeah, I'm well rested. And I've not fatigued, because we're barely working.
00:23
Exactly. Yeah. But it's not always just the flying I suppose. There's lots of factors that can contribute to sort of fatigue in like a sleep in your, in your normal life. Why is it such a big issue for for pilots? This kind of fatigue sort of things it falls in under their human factors or human performance and actually is taught to pilots in the CRM class.
00:50
back to topWhy Sleep and Fatigue
Usually or the you know that theme of things. Not the technical side and in ATPL oh yes in the human performance exam. Yep. Because that's the the crux of it for me is we want humans to fly the aircraft. We want humans in all parts of our society to perform jobs that we don't want to be automated, you know, for creativity for a process of thinking that we haven't mastered yet with automated systems to get the best out of a human.
01:22
You've got to recognise that, there's human factors. Yeah. Okay. Aviation is at the forefront of trying to objectify and study human performance because it's critical to the operation. Yeah. And we're in a high risk industry. So if we let things slip, then the risks are high. So there's chance of of death.
01:44
So not just overlooking the human element and trying to be scientific about. It is really important and of course, and I think studies of sleeper behind as a as a society. We still don't just feels like we don't know as much about sleep, considering it's a third of our life and other medical degree aspects like diet and so on.
02:09
Yeah, when you're gonna get humans to do unnatural things, like fly a plane and travel great distances that were not evolved to do, or go to the moon or fly around in space. Suddenly, you have to quickly start to understand what the effects are going to have on on the humans and sleep is going to be a big part of that.
02:31
So it's really important, you know, to put it simply at what point is the human. If you were drunk you we wouldn't be wanting. You wouldn't get on a plane if as you were on the airbridge there you see in the pilot swiging in there? Yeah a bottle of whisky and handing.
02:47
It to the first officer. Yeah. But actually you let your cognitive levels of alertness and reaction times and things like this can quite quickly become the same as if you were drunk. Yeah. And three fatigue and tiredness. Yeah. And yeah, the passengers might not be aware. That, that, that could be a factor.
03:09
Yeah, I yeah. I read a lot about that. About how it's comparable to to being drunk essentially, if you're if you're fatigued and sleep and, fatigue can affect anybody, it's not just pilots. It can affect anybody obviously, but it has more of a profound effect on pilots because of the unnatural hours that we work, and the way in which we work, so it's critical to pilots.
03:33
Yeah performance. Yeah. It's also under attack by. Yeah, by the job itself. Exactly exactly. So I read the ICAO definition which said, which which, I think summarises quite nicely. So it says, fatigue is the physiological state of reduced, mental, or physical performance capability, resulting from sleep loss, wakefulness circadian, phase, or workload.
03:55
So I think, three out of those four things can affect anybody. So sleep loss, wakefulness or workload. Everybody has stuff going on in their lives so has a bad night's sleep. But I think maybe the circadian phase is the one that affects us the most as pilots because most people who work in a nine to five job their circadian phase and that's located rhythm which I'm sure will come out to talk about is standard and doesn't really fluctuate much but whereas for us, that's that, that's the big for this will be changes occur, especially in long haul travel.
04:27
But in, you know, getting up early in the morning finishing like, yeah, etc, etc, is that. So as you say, it's sort of detrimental to us it's where it's attacking us as well. Yeah, for me, this is where, and I've only appreciated this in this sense like recently, which is it's, it's one of my skill sets as a professional being able to rest, being able to get rest to not be fatigued, to sleep before duty.
04:53
Not let there be cumulative effects, that's actually a skill and maybe you're just better at it when you're younger more resilient and then your life is simpler when you're younger as well. And when you have all these things competing against you being able to be rested and sleep at that point, are you a professional?
05:14
Are you gonna take it upon yourself to put the priority of your next shift or your previous? You know, shifts effects on you first rather than your social if you family life or absolutely. And I think it's really hard to do as well. I think, you know, you're right, it requires real professionalism to actually look after yourself in that way.
05:34
Because I'd be the first to admit that there's been times where I've gone to work, where I've felt tired and yeah, not as well, rested. As I would have liked to have been, but health, you're supposed to pilot. You're supposed to be the one who takes responsibility for your own.
05:47
Yeah. Fit to fly. Yeah, absolutely. And some things can be easier. So, you might have pressures where? Okay, if I call in sick, I'm gonna be in some kind of sickness stage, or disciplinary, or something, okay? So those pressures might stop. You calling in sick for all sorts of things, including the entire and so on.
06:07
But particularly with being fatigued or tired, what I thought was in our society today, you'll rewarded. So you standard conversation is, oh, how you doing? I'm so busy. This is with anybody not applying so busy. I'm so tired. That's the expected thing to say. It's like the data business.
06:28
Yeah, you wouldn't say Adam how you doing? And then I get, I'm really well rested. Thanks like yeah it's just not cool. Basically the ego wants to say I'm really busy and I'm really tired. Yeah. So my point being that to admit that you're too tired to work, kind of flies in the face of ass societal norms.
06:49
So you've got to man up, excuse the phrase and say to the and your copilot. I'm not fit to fly because I'm too tired and it's kind of yeah. In the face of your ego. You know, we're an in society. We're supposed to be tired, especially working grinding. Yeah, exactly.
07:05
And say, it's almost like, saying you've got a deficiency? Yes, say I'm too. I'm see, I can't do. I'm too tired to try. Yeah, yeah. But there's so many factors of why you might be fatigued or, or just tired that day. That you could never compare one person to the other.
07:20
Sure. Yeah. Even if they tried their best to be rested, that it might not have happened. And do you think you've ever been fatigued at work? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. There's one specific example. I think it was a time when we were learning more about fatigue which is why I might have like learn about it.
07:38
Basically, I was on a Sharm El-Sheikh which from the UK is really long, two sector day anyway and I done a lot of deep night flying as well. So it's a perfect step for it. And I've been re-based and I was commuting. Well, I wasn't, but in between shift patterns, I was commuting and I was staring at the wind vector on the ND on the Boeing 757 probably and I just couldn't figure out where it was coming from where the wind was coming from.
08:15
Because that's one of these things that you just instinctively glance at it and your brain would tell you the data that it's that you're interpreting. But I was unable to interpret it and for some reason that struck me immediately is that's just that's fatigue. That yeah, it's tiredness but there was another element to it.
08:34
There was a confusion and a fogginess. Yeah it wasn't like the entire. That's why I'm trying to tell you is like a cumulative thing over that summer season that that shift block. Yeah that's an important point, isn't it? It's there is a difference between being tired and being fatigued if you just have maybe one bad night's sleep yeah you might be tired but fatigue yeah it tends to be more cumulative over a long period.
08:58
Like you say with lots of things going on lots of bad night sleeps in a row working a lot. So maybe some stress and yeah back back to that sort of ICAO definition the physiological state of reduced mental performance, capability. That's kind of what you experienced on that. You couldn't mentally process, the the data that was exactly in front of you.
09:21
It wasn't like you were so tired. You were falling asleep. But you actually you were fatigued and, you know, couldn't process the the data in front of you says it's yeah. There is a difference between being tired and and being fatigued. I found out some information not about pilots unfortunately, but about the effect of fatigue on doctors, right?
09:44
back to topSleep in Society
One thing I found out was in America at least in the entire training of a doctor, they received only about two hours training on education on sleep, right? So there seems to be an underwhelming focus on sleep in terms of biological and medicine. Yeah like we said it's a third of your life but then looking at medicines response to sleep as well just look at this some of the shifts that doctors have to do.
10:17
Well, yeah, it's interesting like we're you know, there are a lot of comparisons between our industry and medicine. Both high both high risk industry. Yeah, exactly. So he gave them some, I'll ask you a question. So if you were about to have a doctor perform you, right? Would you ask them?
10:36
How much sleep have you had in the last 24 hours? Well, maybe after like, hearing what you're saying? Hey, maybe I would. Yeah, well, okay, say we can get into the the details of eight hours, seven hours, and so on, and that kind of thing and what people think they need, but let me tell you that.
10:54
Statistically, according to this study, if a doctors had six hours, sounds, alright or less. He's a hundred and seventy percent more likely to make a major error during, the surgery. Wow, okay. Now, some of these doctors and this is American again, the, you know, this sort of we call them, junior doctors, and they do these like 30 hour shifts.
11:17
I've never really got my head round know how it works, but on a 30-hour shift, they're 460% more likely to make a major diagnostic error. Which sounds obvious really? I mean, how I shift? Yeah, I mean, that's just crazy, right? I mean I would think that that would be the same for us.
11:36
Like if we were on a 30-hour duty, I would imagine that by my 29th hour, I might be, because I think they're sleeping, aren't they? But just as and when. Yeah, and they're not really getting any in the early days. It's not, it's not as they're being called constantly.
11:52
Exactly. It's the quality of the sleep. And yeah, that was one of the factors in there. Buffalo Accident, which we might come on to talk about a little bit. Later was actually where they were sleeping and the quality of the of the sleep which is which is important. They all goes into things that people are studying their ATPL or the different types of sleep.
12:09
Yeah. You know like the early sort of phase like the rapid eye movement and there's four phases deeply. And then on top of the four phases of sleep, you've got rapid eye movement. Usually which is the most fascinating and phase of maybe. Yeah. And the ATPL study has a lot on that those four phases and what they mean and so on we don't really have control over that practically speaking but you're supposed to get eight hours sleep, maybe seven.
12:37
Yeah, is what I've learnt? I reckon it's gone down over the years though. I think when things when life wasn't so stressful like 20 years ago, I seem to remember people saying like, oh, you should get nine hours a night and then like maybe 10 years ago, it was like eight everyone needs eight hours.
12:52
Now, I'm pretty sure like here, people say seven's probably enough for you know. Yeah. So this is the thing is kind of like a an epidemic of bad sleep, so many, so many things working against us. So this idea that we need less sleep. Yeah. And then we can survive unless sleep.
13:11
Yeah. Yet Alzheimer's diabetes. Cancer all linked to a lack of sleep. Over your lifetime. Yep. The world health organisation have specifically said that any nighttime shift work is now designated as a carcinogen, I.e. cancer causing factor. Wow, the fact that you're a nighttime shift worker. So famously Margaret Thatcher used to say, hey, she only had four hours sleep and unfortunately, she died of Alzheimer's, and Ronald Reagan at the same time, right?
13:47
But just looking more, subtly even to light down to this. Six hour thing, there is a major study that occurs twice a year with about a billion people, right? So that is daylight savings time. Yeah. Did you know that there's a 24% increase in heart attacks after the spring daylight savings time?
14:10
When you lose an hour sleep? Is that right? And then they reverse 24%, decrease in heart attacks and cardiovascular major problems. And the day after the, when you get an extra hour sleep, that's really interesting. So, anyway, there's endless statistics about the effect of sleep, but just what's fascinating to me is the if you get just less than seven hours, yeah, it has an effect on you.
14:35
There's a lot of studies on athletes, you know, who on it. Perform that they all learn a skill 20 to 30% better. If they've had a good night's sleep and that over a season, if those that were getting six hours sleep had 60% more injuries by those who didn't right?
14:52
Okay. There's a lot of stuff around athletes all sort of pointing towards the effect that it might have on a pilot. But remember we're also not in our own bed at night and we're not in a bed at the right time. So like you've said is it's up against us, just going on to that athletes point.
15:08
Conditions for Sleep
It's diverging slightly, but I do remember about the cycling, the team sky society team, where they, they ship, like the cyclists own mattresses from home, like a year. They're going in the world that a march of the marginal gains like getting a place slightly better night sleep. Yeah, they're in there actually, well, kind of in their own bed, if that makes sense.
15:27
I fractured. It helps bring this back to aviation but just staying on that point about. Apparently, if we're in an unfamiliar place, trying to sleep half, basically half of our brain won't sleep properly. Won't go through this, the stages sleep, and it's an evolved mechanism. Like a threat detection.
15:47
Yeah, kind of? Yeah, it makes sense. And we're always in hotels, in a really places. Yeah. Yeah. The team sky thing, you're doing everything they can. But if you're not in your own bed at night that has a real effect, I feel like, on some people, I feel like a good night sleep, but then it's funny that we have familiar hotels.
16:02
Yeah. Maybe your brain accepts like, oh, you're back here again, but if you're in a new hotel, might be different or the rooms different. Yeah. Beds different. And and I can certainly relate to waking up a lot of times thinking, where am I, what's going on? Like, and it's pitch black and you like I might home, am I in hotel?
16:17
Where let's talk about that and is it pitch black? I mean what what conditions do we need really? As as as crew to make use of, you know, and to get sleep. Yes. So well yeah. They so the darkness helps, we might find ourselves sleeping at different times of the day.
16:35
So quite often, a lot of the hotels we stay and do have like blackout blinds, which make you feel like it's night and quite often if I have been on early shift and I go get to the hotel and have a look afternoon nap with all the with everything close that the way you do it then.
16:50
Well, yeah, occasionally yeah, but way, but the point is after an hour of an afternoon, if I wake up and it's pitch black it takes me a while to figure out what time of day is, is it the next morning, have I ever slept my alarm, right? Is it?
17:03
And it just take a little while to because your senses are saying it's night time. Yeah. Which is good. Then yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yes, it works. So they're called their Zeitgebers. Yeah, which are the German word for basically the, the clock, the, the way that your body learns, what time it is which apparently includes just looking at the clock, your brain like accepts and also it's that time.
17:24
I must be. I wonder if you change the time on the clock. Yeah. You might for your body, you could convince them. But yeah. Heat light and noise. Yeah. Have you ever had a hotel where that's not worked out for you? And yeah, occasionally like the noise noise can be a problem.
17:39
Well, that home and do you replicate the same standards? You know, I think, in our case the union sort of, says to the company, the hotel must have these standards for sure, the company agree with. Yeah. But what about at home? Surely. We need the same. Yeah, exactly. How blind?
17:55
Oh yeah, but air conditioning, exactly. Yeah, no. Yeah, one that sort of my backup, this sort of saves me, is an eye mask and earplugs, right? Okay, so I've got that. I can pretty much trick my body into sleep. Yeah. So, even if the neighbours got music on and yeah, the curtains aren't very good and that kind of thing.
18:15
Circadian Rhythm
Well, I think that leads us on nicely to talk about the circadian rhythm of the body and how it is a kind of working working against this say, I did a little bit of research again in Latin as to what's circadian where it comes from say, circa is approximately and Dian is day.
18:33
So, approximately a day, it's the funny that you say that because it's island that it's not if you know that you're right. But if did you so this circadiam rhythm, if you were cut off from the real world, like in a trying to just think like down a mine shaft.
18:51
Yeah. You gone to a 25 hour cycle? Yeah, I did read something about that and then it said that actually it was disproven later on. They maybe wasn't so act, but I thought that was the reason why flying east is worse than flying west. There must be some element of truth to it.
19:05
But that's not the only reason why it's worse. Yeah. Okay, so carry on. So, yeah, so the circadian rhythm is your body's kind of natural 24-hour rhyth on. It has periods where it's very alert and awake periods, where it's completely like resting. And it's also like body temperature as well.
19:25
Again, you have really low temperature, that's when your body is kind of, it's least alertness, which usually, for most people occurs, around sort of four o'clock in the morning. Yeah, just about the time. That a pilots alarm clock is, is going off. Exactly the time. You don't want to be waking up.
19:41
So the point is getting back right to the start. The is the circadian rhythm is sort of as you described. It's kind of attacking are sleep and off fatigue, and our alertness, because it's working against us. A lot of the time. Not only would like, long call time zones. But also the time of day that we're, we're trying to wake ourselves up on an early shift, right in the right at the point where we should be in our deepest sleep.
20:04
Yeah. Essentially. And then I was reading about this, the melatonin, like the whole moon. There's naturally released at night to help you sleep essentially. Yeah. So we're trying to operate through the night or work early in the morning and there's like, even a hormone going into our body which is right?
20:21
Yeah. Against us to put us back to sleep sort of thing. So that cumulatively a lot of sort of abusing of the circadian rhythm essentially is, is a massive contributor. Yes to. So can we can we hack it and get around it? Or can we not, should we respect it?
20:39
Rules and Regulation, Rosters and Commuting
Or should we force through? Well, I think there's quite a lot of regulation in place to help us manage. It isn't there, sort of, you know, for example, the length of duty we can do or the amount of sectors we can do, for example, if our shift starts and this is all in our kind of regulations are operated spaniel if our shift starts in what we call, the WOCL, the window of circadian low.
21:03
So ie between sort of four and six o'clock in the morning, then we can, we have to do a shorter day. We're only allowed to related to how many hours we can do, which is less than if we were to say start at 8am or 9am. Yeah, so it's there's sort of regulation out there to help us manage it.
21:21
But ultimately, the onus is on us is pretty close to the regulations of it. I supposed to be in line with the health. Yeah, yeah. But they're a bit blunt. Yeah, and regulation is competitive, you know, if the FAA are saying that this is okay, then why should the European agency be tighter?
21:44
Like the end of the day then their restriction European aviation business. Yes. So regulation can be your backstop and save you and keep the industry safe. But you have to be aware that. It's also, it has to side to the scale where it is. It doesn't want to be over regulatory because no one would make any money.
22:05
Yeah. So like you say as a professional pilot, you've got to draw the line. But do you know anything about and fatigue risk management systems not really no. So I think they're mandated in all European airlines which just the idea is that you like a safety management system, collect data, monitor the rosters and their effect on health.
22:29
So you'd collect data through, you collect all the rosters and then pilots would submit fatigue forms to say, they felt really fatigued. All this data sort goes into a system plus systems that have come about through decades and decades of different research, NASA's always involved. The CAA lots of a lot of defence companies and stuff come up with mathematical and what they could bio mathematical models, where you put a roster into a computer and it already tells you that pilot will be fatigued on this day according to our statistics and so on including things like the drink driving cognitive line and if the pilot will exceed that on this duty and so on, it's okay.
23:17
Okay. So that can be used proactively. Yes. Say well, this roster, you're about to publish this roster but that's not good. It's not good. You need to amend it or change it. Yeah. So like a safety management system it's supposed to be proactive and, you know, intelligent, uses data.
23:31
So there are examples of where now airlines are allowed to operate outside of the the hours that you were staying earlier. Yeah, we call them the, you know, you can do this many hours. Yeah, this sectors. If they've got the data to show, actually, that's highest. Don't feel fatigued on this pattern or these these destinations, you know, in a row.
23:51
That kind of, yeah. Okay. Then they're allowed to actually operate outside of that, exactly, yeah. Yeah, that's yeah. So it's a scientific approach and it's a bespoke approach, you know, like somebody flying a small jet private jet company doing the same pattern in terms of the numbers and destinations might have a totally different experience to an airline operator.
24:13
Sure. And so they developed their own roster in patterns, stamped by the regulator by using data. And so, so that was big recent change. Wasn't there with the regulation about the first or long haul, right? Okay. eat to West. Okay. And commuting and I guess that might be as a result of some of that data is that not?
24:33
When in the UK we got the EASA, so regulations and they were yeah. If they, they started to integrate commuting, which will probably talk about with the Colgan, air crash maybe. Yeah. Which has an effect because it's alright, having all these regulations. But you don't regulate what the pilot does outside of when they report for duty.
24:51
We could be incredibly fatiguing or not depending on how they choose to. And and commuting is a strange thing in. Aviation that there's a lot of commuting compared to a normal job. Some incredible distances. Oh yeah. Absolutely. And with we know of commuters to the UK from. Yeah. America.
25:08
And North America Australia. Yeah. Yeah. South Africa far east everywhere. Yeah, can be a really healthy thing for there for their lifestyle. It does terrify me a bit. I've always been reasonably why I've always been very close to my base actually. Yeah. And but I guess you get used to it.
25:28
Yeah, but it's another layer into that added into that slit lack of sleep in that fatigue, you know? So we've already got things working against us like art on social hours are early starts. When you factor in time zones, and and jet lag and commuting. Yeah, time zones. And then flying back across a different time zone, maybe getting east to west, west to east.
25:49
Sleep and Fatigue in Practice
You know, it really is a big factor and it will affect a pilot quite a. That's some people will be able to manage it better than others and the Swiss cheese thing there, isn't it? Yeah, on the wrong day, the wrong circumstances, conspire against you, you know, an engine failure on top of this on top of that and your commute and this it can all add up to an accident.
26:13
And unfortunately, when I was trying to look for accidents directly related to sleep and fatigue, as I think we said they never, they can never say for certain that, that was a contribute to fracture because often the crew might lose their lives or they might be inclined to lie.
26:29
Yeah, if I tried to look into remember that aircraft, it's a northwest northwestern and who flew over the destination and yeah, I like an hour. I do recall that and they so I think the one that I'm referring to is north west airlines, flight 188. However, it's not useful to talk about because the pilots did, I think they didn't really admit to, or they gave a version of events which people disputed, perhaps, didn't they go out over like the Pacific for like that they were gonna shoot them down.
26:57
They're about to scramble, right? But even a traffic control, didn't notice for a long time and luckily, they didn't have fuel starvation. There's possibly a smartphone, tablet distraction using a factor but the CVR only records. The last half an hour of the flight and they took an hour to get back to the airport.
27:16
I was supposed to fly to but right one of the theories as that's as far as I can say really, was that they were both asleep. Right. And that's why they've overflown the destination. And like you say though, it's difficult when looking for accidents to say that this, you know, you can never really say that.
27:31
The sole course, was was fatigue. Yeah. Because it's just really hard to prove, but on quite a lot of them, it, it's kind of been assumed that that was a contributing factor and you can kind of understand without our lifestyle, and when you look at some of the accidents, you can see based on the data that they have, how there's a reasonable chance that the pilots might.
27:52
Well, have been either very tired or fatigued. Yeah. And I guess it's just always going to be subjective. You can't really? Yeah. You can ask that pilot how tired is and then interestingly find this difficult phrase but basically you yourself are going to be the worst person to assess how fatigue you are.
28:11
Yes definitely. So I mean how would you play that with a colleague? Actually, I guess if I felt that my colleague was tired. Yeah, possibly fatigued. It might be worth mentioning beforehand but likewise, you know, like you say the eight is really hard to know it in yourself, you know, I'll be fine.
28:33
You know. Okay, I'm a bit high but I'm okay. The ultimate level of professionalism would be to take yourself off the flight. Yeah, but as another sort of professional side of it, you could mention it beforehand and say hello. If you see me starting to get things, okay. You know, that's a, that's a sign that I might be a bit tired, or especially when we do asshole pilots, when we do the odd night flight which we're not used to doing through the night working, we were used to early starts and late finishes but a complete through the nightflight.
29:01
That's that's the one way you might sort of pretty brief, you know. This is gonna be difficult for us both. But then this is so it's such a abroad subjects. So you're in my mind there you're talking about falling asleep and in the walk all, you know, in the night and that is like the aircraft puts you to bed.
29:19
This is low stimulus. Yeah, it's like three in the morning, there's no radio chat, this warmth in case you've gone to sleep. The crew probably taking rest that they don't want to buddy, maybe the other pilot is taking controlled rest and so you're being quiet. It's not wake them.
29:34
And as well, I think I learnt that in the states, you're not allowed to take control rest. Is that right? Maybe they mean in the sea. Yeah, I think that, I think that I say whenever I have flown through the night having just a conversation with your colleague is the best stimulus.
29:49
Yeah. For keeping you both sort of alerts. Well, for sure, like I remember you asking me because I in a previous airline did lots of deep night flying and this night. This is the wrong phrase night and day. One trying to say is you can be very, very, very tired.
30:04
Yeah. Well, very awake. And for me the very awake was always when I was having just great chat banter. Whatever was there? Yeah, yeah idea the one. Yeah and and I think they would be feel the same. You either beast in each other or you're draining each other. Yeah, yeah.
30:20
Yeah, even if it's like the captain showing you pictures of his house extenders you know anybody always collection of classic cars or whatever. It's at least it's some sort of stimulus, a cabin crease come in actually quite deep into the night and then kind of get you talking and yeah, that that's always good.
30:36
Yeah, it's always nice to have somebody. Just somebody to talk to really and just keep you and the effects of altitudes don't forget, like, everything we talk about. Always amplify everything, definitely. So, however, tired, you are however, unhealthy you are however, prone to the fatigue at that moment and that it's as soon as you get up there.
30:54
Yep. You're now and gonna feel it a lot more because of the cabin altitude. Yeah, as well for like this is going to be a fatiguing. Yeah, manageable yeah thing I mean when I did long haul, that was a big part of the operation was managing your energy over that.
31:13
I don't know 12-hour duty. Yeah, I need to be more alert here. Let's alert here, how can I manage my? Yeah, it let alone the fact that then you might when you might be falling asleep because of your, you down route or whatever. Yeah and I don't know how I did it basically but I was a lot younger, then it's an extra threat that needs managing, I guess the same actually against, you know, I was thinking as well.
31:37
It's like you got to sleep and then you're in a beautiful destination or the social aspect is really early and yeah, the effects of alcohol. Yeah, some people use that to go to sleep but it's well documented that that means that you all not achieve. The type of sleep that you should be getting but everybody out might be out drinking.
31:56
Yeah, you really need to sleep but hey everybody's going down to the local bar, to get you food and drink and there's a game on and we're all gonna have a great time. Everybody's a a year into the same environmental conditions maybe but then it's going to affect you differently.
32:10
Apollo 11
Yeah, good example Apollo 11. Yeah so they got to the mean. Yeah. With all the drama as well of of making the land in yeah, which I'll try not to go into because I love it. Yeah. Then they went for a walk about on the mean. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
32:25
Yeah, yeah. Then they get back in the spaceship and checklist as go to sleep two hours, they were supposed to go to sleep then before like yeah. Yeah. So they were asked about it. Apparently, Neil got no sleep at all. Why would you yeah? I so the polo that landed capture had windows with bright sunlight coming in.
32:47
Yeah. All the lights in this cockpit weren't dimmable, right? They're on bright and Neil said specifically that the periscope that they used and had the earth shining happened to be shining in it and it was like a light bulb, the earth coming through that right buzzed the space on the floor, okay?
33:06
I can't quite picture it but and he had the best space, right? The best. Yeah. Space to lie in and he actually went in and out of sleep, he reckoned, right? They slept in their space suits was very dusty in the flight deck. What do you call it at? That time the spacecraft.
33:21
Yeah, but the space suits were too cold because they're designed to keep you cold on the moon. So yeah. How do you go to sleep on knowing that you're on the moon? Yeah, is and all those stimulus is bigger excited. Yeah, yeah exactly. Can look at the moon, you know and then like space to it.
33:37
I think you just give us a good idea for another podcast. I know it's not kind of ATP or related but we should maybe do an Apollo 11. I don't know from qualified to very much to going to. Hey, have a good example of yes. So in you know space would be a more extreme situation where you still need to sleep.
33:53
So how you're gonna do that? So people who live in space for a long time, obviously wouldn't do very well if, if they weren't getting regular sleep, so they must eventually be able to find, you know, regular sleeping patterns and so on. So yeah, I just feel like if you go on and on about the effects of sleep but what should we talk about?
34:14
Colgan Flight 3407
Which we try and talk about a crash that that yeah, sleep and may have had an effect on. Yeah, I think that be a nice way to and then come back to probably one accident recently that. Yeah. Sort of never proven. But quite well of accepted that. One of the contributed factors was the fatigue of the flight crew was the cogener.
34:36
Yeah, Colgan flight 3407, which crashed on approach into Buffalo? New York, actually crashed on on top of a house on approach. It basically, it was a stall, so very briefly the background. It was a bombardier dash a Q400 from Newark. New Jersey to Buffalo New York and it was.
34:56
Yeah. The cause of the crash was narrowed dynamic store, the aircraft crashed on top of the house on final approach and killed everybody on board. Sadly 49 people on board and one person on the grounds. Yeah. In the house and the one liner NTSB kind of summary as to the cause of the crash was the pilots inappropriate response.
35:18
The story of the store warning, but obviously Swiss cheese. You know, there's always loads and loads and loads of contributing. Yeah, factors. And as we said, it can't really be proved but the disprove sorry, carrier? Yeah, you write, they have tried to disprove that. That was a, that was a factor, the fatigue.
35:39
But I think it's kind of widely accepted that, that was definitely a contributor. Yeah. It's very human to learn what the pilots were doing the day before. Yeah. And the CVR from before departure in Newark the comments made by the first officer. They're really damning to and it just makes you interesting think this is because they were, they were tired.
36:04
Yeah and she was having a chat with a captain while there was setting up the pre-departure stuff and I should really say word for word but it's it's horrible. It's how she's really tired. She shouldn't be at work. You know, one of the lines that like really resonated with me was she said, it's something like this one of those days where if you felt like this and you were at home right now, you wouldn't leave home.
36:29
But now I'm all the way here at work, you know. And then it's like, oh, we'll see how I feel when we get flying, you know, it's just like, but I can feel myself. Like having probably said that I passed like agreed. You know, I'm sat there at work.
36:43
I wish I was at home and I would never have left home if I felt like this. But I'm here now and that's what that's like the other side of our professionalism is like that we have pilots have a can do attitude. Like yeah I can I can do this, you know, I'm not I'm not gonna let people down.
36:58
I'm you know, even though the easy thing to do would just be to call it is what would happen if she called in then. Like, let's speculate. Yeah. Who no flights? Delayed. Yeah. Cost a lot of money for the airline people are like, how can you got to the cockpit?
37:10
And then decided to. Yeah, we shouldn't speculate. It may be documented, but people are quite sceptical about airlines responses to you calling in sick, repeatedly or calling in fatigue. If that is a thing, nobody likes calling it sick in any industry, you know. I even remember as a young still, like, working in a supermarket like you, it's just not in our nature.
37:33
It's just, you're letting people down or you feel like arrow medical stuff is different. Like if you've got a cold and she had a cold, she had a cold by looks at things. Yeah. And she asked her to send it was that bad because this was only at 19 that well, I mean, I don't know what their pressure difference was for them, but yeah, you know, that that doesn't read very well.
37:50
No, to be tired and cold. He also set up what she had been doing the day before before. She makes those comments on how she got to work. Yeah, so I think I read that. She was a computer from Seattle. Yes. Those of you that know like American geography.
38:05
That's the other side of the country. Yeah, we're not talking to small country. That's that's a five. Six hour flight it's across. I don't remember how many time zones but that's a decent commute. Yes, from sort of west coast to east coast and it taken her two flights. Yeah, get there.
38:21
One of which at least was just on a spare seat on a FedEx and I'm not sure about the sort of what the quality of the flight or you know, her where she was resting or where she was sat. Something about that, she was resting on the cargo like obviously to lie horizontally, okay, okay.
38:40
And another factor in this was what that came out of it was to the amount that the airline paid there, their regional established allies paid there, their flight crew, because this commuting option was a free option. Basically, for the first officer, she didn't have to pay, you know, a commercial ticket or a standby to yeah, ever, which might have sort of made a difference.
39:02
So, she was taking the option. That was the cheapest because she essentially wasn't paid very well. I heard she didn't $16,000 the year before. That was her annual salary and that's crazy. Like, apparently less than a waitress. Yeah, that's unbelievable for a professional pilot. Yeah. And so she was obviously trying to save money by getting this freebie flight, although it was kind of a bit disjointed and probably ended up taking longer.
39:27
She slept in a crew rest centre in between the two flights. Yeah. And then one of them was it. Here was had logged on and off to the roster in system a couple of times. That was, here's the caps. Sorry. Yeah, that's the carry on there. So he was commuting from Florida.
39:40
Yeah. Day before and which is probably the commute, but still commuting. But yeah, the detected sort of 3 am. Yeah. He'd logged on to a rostering system or computer system. So who knows where he was trying to rest or sleep? Yes. Hi. Focus. He was obviously broken if he was checking that at three o'clock in the morning so yeah, obviously like so we can't prove it but all the signs are there that both flight crew are probably.
40:08
Yeah. You know. Because because then the you said, it's because they stalled. Yeah. So briefly then what? So the aircraft stored. Yeah, I don't fully understand why. And because the ice in theory, I think was disproved right or there, you may know differently. No. But they stored, I'm not entirely sure.
40:28
Well, they, they had a store warning. Yep. Before they seemingly did anything abnormal as well. Say okay, but then Sam how did they react? So they reacted the opposite way to, which you should react to a in that they, they pull back on the, on the stick which is not dissimilar to what happened with the air France 447 and numerous of the flight.
40:52
So so it leads us on to a whole. Another kind of worms really in the training of pilots on store recovery because this happened a few times now where and I can kind of understand it. It must just the plane starting to drop lose energy and fall out the sky in a stall.
41:08
The instinct must be well I don't want to fall out so I need to pull back and pull up and which is completely the wrong city. It's easy to say. Yeah. What? What an idiot? Both you know what an idiot. Like it's like 101 of being a pilot. Yeah.
41:23
But what's more fascinating to me. Is how why does a human do something that they have been trained not to do that? If you ask them, they know not to do. Yeah. You know, that's an enemy. They're studying to that sort of stuff. We often talk about your need, your reaction to things.
41:45
Caging the chimp these kind of things, but they were quite low. Yeah. And generally aviation training in America, had always asked the students to recover with as little height loss as possible. Yeah. Which they said, might have been a factor in something that they wanted to change. Yeah. But yeah, they pulled back then, the severe plate, disconnected.
42:13
There was a stick shaker. They pulled back, they shouldn't done that. So then they started entering wingdrop stores. And then the aircraft did a stick pusher. Yeah. So say that's like the aircraft's own protection systems. Yeah, hang on. You don't want to be doing this and try to push the stick forward to unstall.
42:30
Yeah, the wing. But then kept in pull back over whether that was the same thought process. I don't even want to say the word thought the same pattern running through his mind, which is, why is this going down? I want it to go up, you know this? Yeah, and now it's now he's pushing itself.
42:46
Yeah. I don't know. Maybe more interestingly when you talk about like, actually because that's sort of like a muscle reaction but cognitively, they had a very short discussion about raising the flat, the raising the gear, and the first officer raised the flaps laps. Yeah. So that almost strikes me as yeah.
43:06
They were so tired. And even know what phase of flight they're in or something because it was kind of like a picture of those of this that's trying to do any confusion. I've added there or speculation. Let's talk. Just very quickly about to they're tired. We couldn't. We can't necessarily say we can't undo that they're in message at the aircraft store.
44:23
Can't do that. There are a few other things in the Swiss cheese. It could help. So sterile flight deck. Yeah, he didn't have yes. So, what's there use in a sterile flight day? So the idea is still flight deck is that no non-operational conversation versus allies have different levels, but mostly sort of flight level 100 below, 5 of 100 critical phases, physical parts of flight.
44:45
So that you're all your concentration or your capacity is focused on the operation. Yeah. And the SOPs rather than not good for staying awake, maybe. Yeah, no. Exactly. No. But there's a balance. Yeah, exam. If you're the rule is clear though. Yeah, if you're talking about something else, it's not operational.
45:01
Then that's taking some of your capacity away from. Yeah, from flying a monitoring aircraft. It's got like when you drive a car you know they tell you don't look just in front of the car. Like, try and look really far down the road as a child, as a car is going to pull out inside.
45:15
Yeah, you've got it's the brain doesn't want to do that. The brains like lazy wants to save calories basically. Yeah. But if you're in a sterile flight, you then, I think also need to use that time. And then think ahead, which is what if this happens, or what's he gonna do next?
45:30
What she gonna do next? Yeah. Okay, so there's that and brief in is good. Yep, although we brief go rounds before making landings, because that's a really good idea. Yep. I've never briefed a stall. I don't think like before an approach. No, no. But, you know, and in hindsight, like, you know, yeah.
45:48
If they'd briefly stall that day, they might have might have helped them. Yeah, the store recovery. Yeah. Really sad. And here in the CVR and and so on and there's a lot of talk about the captains training record and things like that, which is definitely should be talked about.
46:03
But it's a shame to talk about these people when they're not there to. But as I've talked about, as I've said, in previous podcasts, when we talked about events, Our industry is so forth. Thinking in that, we'll take all take a lot of things out of an accident and a lot of learning points.
46:16
And, you know, ultimately it will always change the future and assemblies are written in blood. So, yeah, I'm interesting all the time. There is fine it. All I'm saying is yeah, it will in the long term, it will probably save more lives in the future with. Oh yeah, sleep may may have been part of the the Swiss cheese in that accident.
46:36
And certainly that's how the industry reacted which is why it's kind of like infamous as being associated with sleep and fatigue. And then I tried to find some other accidents but I mean there's some crazy ones where they've missed entered zero, few weights, you know, gross growth areas and they've been on like these 24-hour duties and all right, well, if you just ask him for an accident, if you're on like a 24-hour duty.
46:57
Ending
So really sobering in two ways for me, not just that crash. But also how how the effect of sleep and fatigue on your health. Yeah, long term makes me really value sleep definitely. Yeah. It's really important, isn't it? And those of you listening that are gonna go on to have commercial careers and, and fly.
47:20
Yeah, the message would be like, look, after yourself and be the ultimate professional. Look after your your own rest and well-being, don't be afraid to speak up. If you're get to know your fatigue policy, exactly say that you have the confidence to say I'm not going in. Yeah. Do you remember him when we were doing our first ever commercial flights and people that we trained with we're doing theirs and then I heard that a friend of ours, had his first ever line flights.
47:49
That's a big deal. Yeah. And he called in sick for it. Oh, really right? Okay. Yeah, I think if you remember he had been so anxious and nervous he just slept and slept right in sick and I remember like first laughing and then thinking, that's ridiculous. And then thinking, yeah, but that's really sensible in it.
48:08
That's like, yeah, that's brilliant. Looking back now. I think well, what I like yeah. What ballsy thing to do. Yeah. But your first flight, everyone's gonna be working really hard. You, the trainer. Yeah. Yeah. And now, he's gonna mess up his whole training schedule. He's on a probationary thing.
48:24
So I'm but he did that. That's pretty cool. But in terms of yeah, professional standards. That is like the ultimate. Yeah good. All right well yeah we're getting good night. Leave that. Yeah I get again get some rest now and thanks for listening. Alright, bye.
