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Airline Pilot Selection Adam Howey Airline Pilot Selection Adam Howey

Airline Pilot Selection

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Transcript Start

Intro

00:01

Adam Sam Airline Selection. How long ago did you last do? Airline selection long time? Yeah, we have fun memories of it. Not really? They. Well if you want to be an airline pilot, you might think for a couple of reasons that I can't do it. It's not for me.

00:22

Mmm. And one of them is gonna be the selection. Well yeah, you always talk about the two hurdles, one of which is financial hurdles which maybe is a podcast in itself. But yeah, the other big hurdle is passing the selection, whether that's for flight school. For the airline, at some point, there will be some form of selection process to go through.

00:41

It's totally alien thing unnatural unfamiliar selection process. Yeah. You might think it's designed to find the next astronaut next fast jet pilot. Yeah. Not necessarily no. But there aren't any academic requirements to become an airline pilot. You need your licence. So how do airlines choose the right people to become airline pilots because the licence doesn't necessarily make you an employable pilot?

01:10

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's almost like a bit of an exercise to cut the numbers down. There'll be inundated with applications. So they've got to do these selection processes to try and cut the numbers down. But also, they want to make sure that you're going to be a success at the job.

01:26

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Risk Assessment

They're going to make an expensive investment in you. Should you get through the selection, so that's unpack that. Then. Yeah. Are they looking for the best people you would like to think say, but more over airlines are masters of risk management. Yeah, they want to minimise the risk that the people they hire will fail their training.

01:49

Go on to be unsuccessful pilots pilots who don't operate within their risk. Assessed framework to every airline has their own selection process that they use to find the right people not necessarily to find the best pilot or the best employee. But to take in a high volume of people using a statistical exercise, that these individuals, according to our models, our tests, and our statistics will go on to become successful pilots.

02:21

Yeah, so don't take the selection process. Personally, it's just a hurdle to overcome and it's a game that you can win, but there will be people who fail the selection process who would have made great pilots. Yeah, and there's people that pass the selection process who go on to be not the best pilots.

02:42

But statistically the overwhelming numbers mean, that people who pass through that selection process will go on to meet the requirements of the airline. Yeah. So what is involved in, in selection process. So typically there can be numerous stages to it. So there might be some sort of initial screening might even be as simple as tick.

03:03

Boxing. Can you do this? Can you do that? Have you about that and then probably early on in the process you'll be looking at things like a CV and online application form because the airlines will be inundated with applications. They've got to whittle the numbers down as a cost exercise more than anything they can't they can't interview 16,000 applicants so so application and a CV at some early stage and then probably if you if you get through that they'll be then the chance to meet face to face.

03:35

So maybe things like group exercises. Aptitude testing, maths testing there'll be an interview more than likely. It's some point that'll be another phase of selection. Some airlines or flight schools will have a simulator assessment and assessment of your basic flying skills. I believe that's, I think it used to be Cathy Pacific used to have a flight grading stage, which was almost like you did you first.

04:01

I can't remember if it was 20 hours or 40 hours of actual flight training, so can be quite a long and expensive process for the airline or flight school, but obviously they're going to be investing a lot in you. So they want to make sure they get it right.

04:15

This that. Yeah, there's quite a lot. This one familiar and it is unnatural. Yeah, it's designed with the job in mind, but rather than let you go and have a go at flying an aeroplane, yeah, which these not possible. Yeah. They're trying to replicate the challenges that test the skills or attributes, or the competencies that they're looking for.

04:36

Yeah. So computer-based testing, you know, for example, stands out as different because you'll be using hand eye coordination, observation skills. Yeah, memory skills. Multitasking skills, that kind of look a little bit. Like something you doing the plane but on exactly like flying the plane and they might test cadets who've never flown an aircraft or they might test direct entry pilots.

05:01

Who've got thousands of hours. Yeah, but the CV in online application stages will be familiar to people for other jobs. Yes. But what we're saying here is that there there may be academic requirements that help them narrow down the numbers, but this selection process designed from start to finish is how they will decide who could make a pilot.

05:23

So, I guess, at some point someone invented an aeroplane and then was like, who were gonna get to fly it? Yeah, so that's an interesting concept really. Yeah. How do you know you can fly a plane? Yeah. How do we've had it? How do you select people as a fly?

05:39

These new inventions? Yeah, so in World War one, and the RAF, whatever they might have been called then had that problem of, all we need some pilots, we need to go and find this new invention. We're gonna use the aeroplane, so they thought. Well, if you can ride a horse, then you can probably fly a plane.

05:56

Yeah. So that was their idea of selection which is I understandable. It's actually doesn't seem that ridiculous. Really now there's probably like transferable skills between yeah and the horse and but then there was a lot of more horses around as well. Yeah, riding them. Yeah. But there's a lot of people who probably couldn't ride a horse who would have made a great World War.

06:20

One pilot. Yeah and there's a lot probably people who rode a horse. He didn't make very good pilots. Yeah, actually. So that's the that's the core of the selection is it's an exercise that the majority people that come out. The other end will meet the requirements at the airline are looking for.

06:38

So, just to be clear, though, it's a hurdle, it's unnatural. It's something that you can get the better offs. If you're at home and you're thinking, yeah, but I'm never going to be the one to pass the selection. That is what would want to talk to you about today.

06:51

Yeah, you can do it, obviously. Not everybody can do but you can do it. I promise you. The main factor of you becoming an airline pilot, is your motivation towards becoming an airline pilot. Not your the fact that you woke up and ready to do aptitude testing this morning.

07:08

Nobody's born good at aptitude testing or any number of these weird exercises that they come up for you to do it's something that you can get the better of them. That's what we want to talk about that the general theory, we're not going to tell you how to do it.

07:24

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Research, Replicate, Repeat

We're just going to give you an insight into how we do it. Now Tomorrow I could go and fly a plane as I'm employed to do and hopefully I'd do that very safely. And in the building next door is where the airline does, all the aptitude testing. So if instead the airline called me into the aptitude testing I reckon I'd go in and fail it.

07:45

Yeah. So how does that work? Yeah, exactly. So hopefully, we're gonna make this point throughout is that it's about preparing for what what you're about to face and your selection and it's not necessarily, you know it, let's take it for any example, take it for the interview. If someone put me in a room next door now and said, you're gonna take on an interview for airline XYZs.

08:06

I would probably fail it. Even though, I know, I'm reasonably competent pilot, I would, I would fail that interview without preparation and and that's what it's all about is, okay? You can have to have these base, this baseline sort of skill and knowledge, but actually above that, to get through the selection process or we can talk right now, the three hours, yeah, which is research replicates and repeats to help you prepare satisfy some collie patented.

08:37

Yeah, three hours. The three hours I should really, I should really get that passences so research the stage of selection that you're about to do. And we'll come on maybe to talk about what we mean by that. Replicate so replicate the scenario, the situation get you makes to help you.

08:55

We'll talk about that as well. And then repeat, which is obvious, just keep doing it. Keep practising, keep prepping. But like I've said this for me, is a religious experience. Yeah, which I mean, this is not just a little token thing that I want you to understand, like the three hours or something, this should be tattooed on your forehead, right?

09:12

Yeah. So let's unpack that now, then. So research. And we pick any stages selection. Say, the aptitude testing, which is perhaps the most alien to people. So yeah. You say in front of a computer in this laser different games that they've invented rubbish games by the way. Yeah. Well pretty, pretty basic looking games and okay.

09:31

You might have seen it once in the past or you maybe you'll Google it a little bit. No, come on. You are gonna find out exactly for this election that you're gonna go to what's involved, right? So you're gonna go on every forum on the internet. You're gonna go to the employer and look on the job spec, if you want something, then you're gonna go to the end of the year to get it.

09:54

Why wouldn't you uncover like upturn every stone there so that you can find out what's involved? Yeah. So what specifically without you testing? I'll be talking about, it's like how many tests are there? Is the multi-tasking test. What do you mean? An observation test, what's involved? And you're gonna find somebody that's been through it before you and you're gonna buy them like a case of beers or ask them, take them out to a coffee, there's always somebody that's done it.

10:20

Before you, you're gonna use everything. You can to research to the nth degree to. It's a to as she was accurately as you can, what's involved? Yep. And then you're going to take that research forward into the next stage which is to replicate. Right. So what does that mean?

10:39

So we're going to try and replicate the stage of selection. So I don't mean just sort of sit and think about your research and sort of try and replicate what it's going to look like on the day in your head. I mean, really replicate it. So if the activity that you've done in your research, says that one of the attitude tests is flying through squares with numbers and triangles different.

11:04

Colours shapes appearing on the side then you're going to replicate the exercise. You're going to get on your laptop on your computer. You're going to find a game online or on your iPads that replicates that game and if you can't replicate it. Exactly. Then you're going to draw some coloured shapes and colour them in and cut them out and you're going to get your buddy.

11:22

He's going to help you sort of replicate the exercise. Exactly. Literally a degree so that when you actually come to it on the day and you actually doing that test, you like, oh, I've seen this before, you know, this is almost exactly how I created it in my bedroom, your brain is I I've done this before.

11:39

Yeah, neurones that fire together wire together, like you've practised it, the the channels in your brain have been have been made. Yeah. The and the roots and your training for the Olympics. Basically, you've repeated so many times. This is just another repeat of the exercise. Yes. So that's that comes into the third R, which is repeat.

11:58

So when she replicated the exercise, then you're just gonna repeat how many times as many times, it's physically possible to do it between the day. You replicate it and the day you go for the assessment. Yeah. Balance with all the other by 10? Yeah. Yeah. And whatever that is in, if you want this times by yeah, times by 10 to the power of yeah.

12:18

More zeros. Because if you want something this bad, why wouldn't you do that? And but that's the game that you're facing here, right? So here's a question. Well, the biggest deciding factor on who makes a successful pilot. I mean unpack that what, what is a good pilot that, that changes throughout your career.

12:37

And I'd like somebody to argue argue those factors but the biggest factor that you will be selecting. For if you're an airline, is the motivation. That's determination. The enthusiasm especially at the cadet stage. So somebody who's gone to the extent of research in replicating and repeating that much is showing so much motivation that there's many more upsides than downsides to that.

13:02

There's no, there's no such thing as cheating because the rules haven't been laid out. So my question to you be, why wouldn't you do this? Yeah, you're not gonna get an award at the end of the selection that you've failed, but you didn't invert commas like, you know, practise too much.

13:15

So yeah. Or so they say well, so well done to you, you know, you want to be the one who passes and now it's no secret. That there are like aptitude softwares available online. And actually when we did very first selections and there wasn't actually these compute or there was a few of these computer-based programs starting to sort of come about.

13:36

I think there's much more now and you can even download them and choose the airline you're applying to or they're maybe really the training school and it will show you the right suite of software, not that you'd want to rely on that 100% to be accurate. No, the point is, why wouldn't you do that?

13:50

But you will come across, you know, changes or things that aren't available and you and I had to replicate the multitasking test. I mean, do you remember what the morty testing test is. Yeah. So it was basically flying across here like a like to to be bars like it like an IS and at the same time, there was a number countdown in your headphones.

14:16

So the secrets would be like, minus seven each time. So it'd be like 300, 293 286. And if the secrets change from say, minus 7 to minus 5, you had to click the trigger. I think all the trigger on the joystick because you find the process. Yeah, whilst all that was going on.

14:35

There was another voice in your head would say something like green triangle and on the screen like different shapes were on the screen. Different shapes were appearing, like a blue square, a red circle. And when you saw the one you're looking for the green triangle, that would have a number in the middle of it, and you then had to press that number on the keyboard.

14:56

And if you got that correct and the voice in your head would then say blue circle and then you carry on doing all of this while still flying the crosshairs and listening to the number sequence. So that yeah, I miss the fun game. Yeah. I was pretty tired afterwards.

15:09

That is a multitasking test. Yeah, that's why it's hard to describe almost. Yeah. And and every human's gonna have a limit there where their capacity, as you might term it, like starts to drop off. Yep. And all the airline wants to see, is that yours drops off above? What is there?

15:26

Acceptable level? Yeah. If yours off like super super high and they don't, you don't get extra salary for that. Also, they don't like contact NASA and say you want this guy. Yeah. The computer says, you're above a line. Some of the stages selection are considered all together at the end as one and you might have done really well at one and that might help overall perhaps of some stage.

15:48

But basically, just need to get over a line in all of these types of tests. And there you go. There's a, there's a multitasking capacity test, call it then, and, and you've got to go over that line. So, do you think like, after we’d practised it? I was any better than the first time that we practised it.

16:07

Oh, you definitely. Of course, definitely like, even if I was 10% better. That's great. But I think I'd argue, I was like hundreds of percent better definitely. Oh, yeah, I'd agree massively. But we didn't have the software say doing this flying through. Crosshairs, listening to somebody countdown numbers and looking for coloured shapes.

16:23

How do we replicate? So I remember we would go Microsoft flight, fly an ILS so that's replicating. The crosshairs one of those crosswind probably to, to make it harder, we would have pre-prepared out a load of shapes and coloured them in with numbers in the middle. And I one of us whoever was like doing the exercise would, would fold them out like a pack of playing cards like to the side.

16:50

In the meantime, either the same person or we might even drafted, another buddy would call out a number sequence in your other ear basically. Yeah. So two people sort of sitting around you flying a is almost harder for the other guys. Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah. But even running the task for you, may was actually good benefit for you, right?

17:12

Because you kind of get an appreciation of what works and little techniques and ideas. And so, I mean, that is our definition of replicate. That is I, you know, I still have fond memories of how we replicated that, right? And repeated it like, well, yeah, you know, we were young university students at a time who had a common interest and not all love other things going on.

17:31

However, years later, you and I would apply for, I think our current airline similar times and that was here we into each of his houses and replicate and we had to we had to do it. So as sad, as it sounds, it depends how much how much you want this and going back to the cheating thing.

17:48

So my argument against that would be okay, yes, we replicated this exercise and repeated, it hundreds and thousands of times take the interview, for example, if you prepared for your interview like that and practise your questions, hundreds and thousands of times and then did a really good interview is that cheating?

18:03

No, because so it's a bit of a non-argument and I just stay away from that is itching or not and I'd get heavily involved into the idea of that your nobody ever regretted trying too hard for something. You'll walk away from that selection day thinking I could have like tried a bit harder a little bit more research but if you walk away and think well I couldn't have liked going any more prep, then you'll be happy with yourself.

18:27

Definitely just give another example about research. Replicate repeat then let's think about say the math test. So we all know that I'm like really wizard maths, right? Yep. A matters like my nominated weak point, at least the one that visit that's visible to me. So it's the one I'm afraid of I suppose, when I think about airline selection, that's the one that's like quite daunting to me it.

18:52

Perhaps that's one of your strong ways. Certainly is a strong point of yours. It's only one of my stronger areas. So working with somebody else has advantages like that which is that you are gonna have different weaknesses. Say mine was maths and there's gonna be some kind of arithmetic math test.

19:06

There may be numerical reasoning tests but let's talk specifically about math tests. There will almost always be arithmetic. i.e., mental mathematics timed with reasonably simple questions, but time pressure and no calculator available, right? So, the particular scheme that we were applying for, and we were desperate to get into, we were able to research the math test to an incredible degree of accuracy.

19:33

Yeah, it would be 15 questions in 12 minutes. Yeah, all right. I think, say and the former the questions would be. The first one would be 578 minus 213. And then, you know, the 10th question was always if 1.5 dollars is 1.2 euros, how many euros for this many dollars?

19:54

And then the 15th form was like, if 1.4 dollars is 1.3 euros, is 1.2 pounds is like a three-way calculator sorting, and they didn't happen to be multi choice. We knew these kind of things. So we and we knew like, you know, question is seven and eight are generally like what's 14 squared or 17 times 13.

20:13

So with that knowledge, and probably even more accurate than that, this is my memory failing me. We were able to or you were able to recreate these math tests for me and give them to me every day. Multiple versions of them until I was above the past. Mark? Yeah.

20:29

Which was 12 out of 15. Yeah. And I think I probably got 12 out of 15 in the end. Yeah. Yeah. As a place to fail in it and subsequently the whole section process. Yeah. And that incredible amount of practise from me and work for you to recreate the test, but made a lifetime of different basically just to me.

20:48

And so I would do things like, okay, not just literally practise it, I'd be like, okay, I need to be able to times 15 by 15 14, I need to square all the numbers but I knew it wouldn't be like above 20 but just knew that it would always be between 11 and 20, whatever.

21:05

So I just learnt all the squares of all the numbers. Yes, that's the right way to say. Yeah, okay. And then, you know, I learnt how to times two numbers together that were between 14 and 15, but not like in a long multiplication way, because I couldn't do it, or whatever, they had some weird method.

21:21

Oh yeah, learn all these little tricks. Yeah, I named it like the Africa method. You like drew around the numbers and more applied top, one by this one, whatever. Say, the point is, you create your own little system and then it, we recreate exam conditions. So you'd you do it with the time pressure?

21:35

My brain learnt, how long 15 minutes felt like? Yeah, how one question should take and just stupid little systems. Everyone's used to like, you know, I'll put a very vague dot mark next to a question. If I moved on, you know, you need to learn things such as that they're going to try and you know like that scene in men in black when like he's trying to fill in an application form in the reception of this weird building and you've got like all these different military guys around him and he's just sort of playing clothes police officer and they're all trying to like write on, like wonky surfaces, and they're watching them for like a two-way mirror or whatever.

22:13

And, you know, it's kind of like just to see how people react to these challenges like, literally on, you know, or so and my sort of loosely affiliated point. There is sometimes the first question is the absolute net impossible to do almost mentally, but they want to see like, oh, did he move on and moved on?

22:34

How do you manage you? Work late all sorts of weird tricks and and and and just the techniques of the game that you're playing here. So don't take it personally. Don't worry about your masterbility, like what can you do to get past the, the barrier to, to get past the pass mark.

22:50

Yeah, to make this happen and you've already alluded to it with interview research, replicate and repeat. But we're not talking about brushing, put on your maths and try, you know, think about the aptitude and we're certainly not talking about, have a little think about the interview in your head, think about the questions.

23:07

I mean, our interview as advice and experience that we pass on to the young, cadets that we've worked with is, is quite precise. Well, it's quite, we're quite passionate about it, and it's definitely a podcast in itself and how we go about interview prep. Yeah, but there are some themes in the interview prep that are common to the whole selection process.

23:36

We should probably bring out which is that they I mean they're not looking for the next astronaut. Say so you pass your maths and aptitude selection and you've just crossed over the line, didn't care, right? But at the interview stage, there is a difference because they're looking for a future commander.

23:53

Someone, you can go on to become a work towards their command. Sam, you know, occasionally, you get sponsorships or part sponsorships, have you ever seen any that a direct entry for captains, for cadets? Well, it's not written like that. But the answer I think is that they all are exactly.

24:10

Every time they select a pilot, they're looking for someone who later on much further down in their careers, going to go on to be a captain. And so when you get to the interview and group exercise, there is more nuance to it. And the other way looking is this is your time to be able to really impress them above the bar, like the cross over the line, and really make sure that they they desire to.

24:37

Like, they really want to that. They see you as a good egg and the one word that I would use for that, which is probably a change over the last few years. What now it's all moved. So competency base will be evidence, right? So, you know, we talked about research, replicate and repeat which is important for all phases, but particularly for the kind of testing phases where you're not actually in contact with a, with a representative of the airline.

25:04

So the online tests or the aptitude tests that's really, really important. It's also important in for the interview in the application to research, what it's all about and try and replicate interviews. But actually evidence starts to come into it now because you are different to our own days interviews.

25:23

Were more kind of get to know you. This, he seems like a nice guy. I remember my first airline interview I was I was only asked three questions. I was asked, did I enjoy my flight training? The question you always get asked, is why do you want to join this airline or why do you want to be a pilot?

25:42

And do you ever want to fly long haul? And that was all I got asked and it was just like, having a chat down the pub with three, guys. And that old-fashioned type of interview was kind of a get to know you. Those three got a bit of an opinion us to what I was like, was I sort of a nice person someone they could go flying with and that was kind of how it used to be.

26:03

Whereas, what are interviews about nowadays? They're horrible. Yeah, you know, unnatural number which I've already talked about with all of this selection but I guess like we're saying ideally, you would take the person on the job and see what they're like, yeah. What strikes me is like, just for interview technique, would kind of just be to like, get to know somebody.

26:24

So go for a walk and have a chat. Yeah, but we can't do that anymore and there's good reasons why you want an objective as much as you can. You know, almost scientific approach to selecting somebody and the interview is just one of those stages. And so this downsides to it being an informal interview, you could have formal an informal interviews but now almost every job you're looking at what's called a competency based interview.

26:48

So the HR department are like you want to hire some pilots great and we'll do an interview. We know how to run that. What do you want? Well the pilots managers the recruitment. They say well we want pilots say, well the HR will say what what makes a pilot, what is what they don't have to list what's called competencies.

27:10

And those competencies are common to lots of jobs and very similar amongst different airlines. And there the words you hear like communication leadership team, work decision, in personal standards motivation, customer service attributes, things like that and said they'll put them in the job application. So there's this amazing trail.

27:33

This breadcrumb trail for you to follow from the very first advert all the way through to your interview. And what Sam is saying by evidence is the most important part of the interview and all the selection is that they're looking for evidence that you have the competencies that they're looking for, the more evidence.

27:53

You give them the more marks you get and then you're gonna pass the interview. So from both sides of table, the interview becomes this objective game to play almost but in disguise as at just a chat on a dialogue between people. Yeah so you need to identify the competencies and perhaps I'm getting a bit too into the interview stuff and that would definitely be as a whole lone podcast at least one.

28:18

Yeah. And but you're gonna find these competencies and your going to go through a process of making, sure you've got the evidence to demonstrate them. And then you're going to unpack, how to answer competency interview questions and you're basically carrying on with the three are. So you're researching what the competencies are and research in your own life, to find the evidence to support them and the more recent and relevant the evidence, the better then you're going to replicate the interview.

28:46

So a lot of people will practise their interview on paper. Maybe in their head a little bit thinking about in the herd while the driving but there's a huge benefit to doing it out loud because physically connecting your mouth with your brain is hard. Work, actually, is tiring to answer a mock interview.

29:07

Question, You can actually feel at the end of it, you're tired, but that shows you the friction that's going on in your head and it will your first answer, I guarantee the second one time you try and give a mock interview and say, it'll be so much better. And the third and the fourth and the fifth exponentially bear.

29:24

Well, I I can vouch for that because I remember back a long time ago when I was doing my, I had my interview coming up for my for my flight school selection and I hadn't really thought about this kind of method of rehearsing my answer out loud. And I remember, I don't know how I used to film in those days, like, did we have like anything we did and how we felt, maybe we didn't film, or maybe we did on laptop or maybe even old like like handheld cameras.

29:51

I can't remember. But basically I remember at some point seeing myself back or hearing your feedback and being like ouch that's that's not very good. Like that's that's I've just heard myself and it sounds awful and then I took whatever tips you said or whatever. I figured out myself even little things like that.

30:12

You didn't too much. Like, fidgeting with your fingers, or you very monotone or your eyes are not looking directly at me. And I was like, oh right gosh, I didn't even. And if you're sat on the in the car, just thinking about the interview in your head, you're not gonna pick up on these things.

30:26

You might have some good ideas for your answers, but you're not actually gonna that's not gonna benefit you into how you're going to give your answer if, if that makes sense. It's only gonna give you the content that you wish to put out. So practising, out loud with yourself.

30:39

Great with somebody else to even better a hundred times better. Yeah. But obviously everyone has a smartphone. So, you've got a film yourself. Yeah, and it is the cringiest thing you'll ever do. That's awful. But once you've seen your bad posture, the amount of ums and ours, you make, you'll never do it again, because it's so powerful and horrible for you to watch back.

30:59

Yeah, so there's that element to practise out loud, but you've also just got to practise and develop this skill of connecting, your evidence from your life, and putting it into a structured way, which is called the CAR method, which then outputs structured evidence with minimal context, that achieves high marks that then goes on to mean that you get ticks in the boxes for the competencies that they're looking for, and it's exactly the same in the group exercise.

31:30

So every stage of selection is a game that can be objectified, that can be practised and heard also can be overcome and everyone's going to have weak points and strong points. Airlines selection is not. This, it is daunting but it's it's not this thing. That as far as I was concerned, it was gonna weed out.

31:53

It was gonna weed me out and it was gonna leave behind like people who really should be pilots. Yeah, and that's why I wasn't gonna be a pilot. The evidence thing is important for the application as well. So if you have some kind of written questions application, they're gonna be looking for evidence in that as well.

32:10

You've got to have something in there. That's gonna distinguish you from the other. We're definitely gonna have to do in a whole thing on written applications, but yeah, it's exactly the same with the interview, most people would approach that as like, you know, here's here's some nice fluffy things for you to read and hopefully you're like pick me.

32:28

No, you talking about targeted writing of written questions. That is secretly just, lots of evidence as to why you should proceed to the next stage of selection. And then they'll probably read you written application right before you walk into the interview room. Yeah. And at one of the themes here, is that every question.

32:47

And every the selection is in disguise and the real question is, why you why should you be a pilot, why should we pick you? So when they ask you, why do you want to be a pilot? They're not actually interested in your like childhood dreams. No, they want to know, why should we pick you when they say what's their competitive landscape of the short haul aviation market in 2021 gonna be like they're not actually gonna run those answers up to the CEO and say we've got it.

33:18

We figured out. Yeah, they actually secretly are asking why you? So, what is the evidence that you and that you provide that fulfils, the criteria, the competencies that they're looking for. They're looking for people with leadership teamwork. They're looking for people with high personal status extreme like motivation towards the job.

33:38

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Online and Written Applications

I mean, talking about say this selection process overall, you're going to start with your written online application and you're going to fill in a couple of boxes and and stuff like that. So, let's describe the emotional rollercoaster of selection process. Now, some people just wake up on a Monday morning think.

33:57

Yeah, I've always wanted to be a pilot but you listening to this as somebody who really knows you want to be a pilot. But how are you gonna, how are you gonna distinguish that from somebody else? First you have to log on to some website, making account and then probably upload a CV or answer some written questions.

34:13

So you better get that done quickly, right. Yeah. Or not take your time, but not too much time. Well, is it just a box ticking exercise, what the actual application or the online? Sort of written questions, CV, upload? Yeah. No, I think that I think it's the most important phase really, because that's where if it's a really popular position you're gonna have let's say 20,000 applicants I but the airline or flight school have only got the capacity to invite maybe a thousand to the next stage.

34:45

So this is where you're going to get weeded out quickly so you really need to take your time but there's a carry out to that. Don't take too much time don't leave it right up until the deadline because occasionally these programs close early if they've been inundated. Yeah, with applications.

35:01

So there's some paradox there, they can get overwhelmed and say, oh it's going to close next week in. Then you'll be crying to HR or be like sorry. We just we just over swamped by applications. Yes. However, the first stage is not a box taking exercise, there's a funnel to this and they are desperate to weed out people and your application won't be read by a robot looking for keywords.

35:24

On the other hand, they have read a thousand applications that day as to like, you know, the question is, what are airline exes, you know, opportunities in the next 12 months or why should you be a pilot? And are everybody is like a team player today. You know. That's all they can read.

35:41

Yeah, but if you're hitting them hard with evidence straight away, that is actually able to substantiate why you want to be a pilot because you have done work experience because you've chosen your education specifically for this because you've spoke to such and such a captain who works for this airline and has told you all about why it is a good job and what the challenges of this particular airline are, then you're much more likely to proceed to the next stage and that takes a bit of effort.

36:10

But when in this game of selection and getting your head around it and being an expert in airline selection needs to kind of be done in advance. If you're going to wait for something to open, then you're probably not going to have enough time to catch up. Yeah. So you need to be preparing for the inevitable selection in advance and then when something opens you would have more of a chance of just tweaking your application.

36:34

Yeah. And modifying your preparation. Yep. To be and more targeted because a lot of these I don't know, 95% of these questions all going to be in common between all the different sponsorships airlines or as you said it's all going to be centred around. Why you you know? Well yeah well why why you why should it be?

36:55

Why should it be you? Where's your motivation? Where what's you leadership skills? Like, what's your team? It's all gonna be the same. So if you do want to become an airline pilot then as you know, as far as I'm concerned, it's the best job in the world and is definitely something that you should pursue.

37:10

And you should start immediately by thinking about the choices that you're making in your day to day life and your spare time to work towards that goal. So that when these application processes start, you're ready. So moving on if you pass the first stage, I mean I think the first one we applied to there was some statistic like only one in a thousand past the selection, which sounded really daunting.

37:36

Yeah. But actually a big number will weed out the first stage and there was questions like do you have the unrestricted right to like, live and work in the EU? And a lot of people just not take that box. Yeah, so that that was part of these daunting statistics, the swimming questions as well.

37:52

Like can you swim 50 metres right when they did now? Like I wouldn't suggest lying about that, but I don't think I've ever been like tested on my I don't think anyone's ever come back to me and God, hey, you ticked out for me said, you could swim 50 metres.

38:04

Like let's get on to the local Lido and you show me that you can do that. Okay. Yeah, I'd hope to even more in, not sure. Yeah, you could. But yeah, so you've got to think about these questions like if you take that box or say oh I'm not a great swimmer of 50.

38:20

Metres two lengths of a pool. I don't know you're going to take now. Are you? Because that's going to throw you out of the system. So there's no sympathy here and if you're really worried that someone is actually going to assess you on that, then you get yourself down to your local swimming baths and get going on your 50.

38:35

Metres like yeah, you know, you don't want something like that to be the reason that you are thrown out of a application selection process. So to the airline, there's an expense to run in these selection processes and they may pass some of that on to the applicants occasionally by and that is almost a selection process because you can't be bothered to pay the 200 pound fee.

38:56

Yeah. Then, you know, where's your motivations? Who are the people who woke up and like, saw the advert in the newspaper for this amazing sponsorship scheme, and then decided they want to be a pilot who are the chances and who are the real people? Yeah. Yeah. I always thought that the fact that I had my class 1 medical in advance was a little bit of an indicator.

39:14

Yeah. That I was serious because it was an expense in a hassle. It's going to get that first. But definitely, it's never a prerequisite to you starting. No, it's a slight detail but actually quite a useful thing to do to make to be aware that of. So if you can actually get one because you don't want to give it too late after you've invested a lot in other areas and then realise you can't get a class one medical.

39:36

Yeah, so I'm detected slightly. No, not at all and but I think we should talk about medicals in depth. I'd like to learn more about it at some point, but often medicals aren't black and white. It sounds like something, they'll be oh, yes or no. But often you won't get the medical on the day.

39:51

You go for it because something that you had no idea about has now crept up. Sorry, say and you know, often with like ECGs things like that, that you don't you've not had because you're a young fit person. Yeah. Then they find out there's this weird trace and it's all going to be resolved, but that might take like, yeah, yeah.

40:11

Could take six months a year or something to find the right specialist. So there's that as well but you're going to pass the first stage uploading a CV. We're definitely got a lot to talk about CVs. There's no, there's no Adam and Sam right way to do a CV but there's a lot of wrong ways to do it.

40:28

Yeah, yeah it's written applications and so there may be like a stage amb there and then if you remember but our you know, we're not that old. But our first thing that we applied for you've written answers had to be handwritten and then facts. And in fact, I mean, that's a challenge in itself.

40:45

That's it, that's it. That's gonna weed out a chance, straight away. A chance is not gonna be like, I can't bother to handle that. And then I can't bother to go and find a fax machine. Even then in 2005, it was hard to find a fax machine. Yeah, definitely.

41:00

So that, that's not because the people we applied to didn't have the technology. It was. I think it was part of the challenge. It was. Yes. Like, can you be asked and can you write legibly like? Because nobody can really, but can you be asked to write? Okay, exactly.

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Aptitude, Maths, Interview and Group Exercises

41:14

So let's say you pass all that. That's going to happen next. So if you manage to get through that then your you're probably going to end up doing some form of aptitude testing. This is this is now going to bother a little bit of cost to the airline or flight school but not not a massive drain on on, you know, human resources but there might be it might be online.

41:37

Then you might get called in for a day where there's 20 of you in a room and just one kind of admin person running these tests. This be specifically. You actually travelling? Yeah. So somewhere. Yeah, you're invited. Yeah, probably to the airline headquarters possibly. Yeah. And you're gonna go to a selection centre or something that they own maybe or a third party place and you're saying a room with computers.

42:03

Yep. Yeah. And what you're gonna you're gonna do this episode which might be some online. Actual like the multitasking. Things flying through squares. We talked about, I guess they would be math. Tests some verbal reasoning. Tests under aptitude, how potentially? So, if you want to hear more about verbal reasons, I think we should talk about that another time.

42:24

Yeah, I want to give it more of an overview today, but a lot of this will be on stage one. If they're really cheeky, they might squeeze in a whole interview and group exercise on the same day, same day or something, the days. Yeah. After it can be some people might like that if they're travelling from overseas, but that's a lot to do so.

42:41

You know, that they may be separated stages there, important to note that. Yes, you're just a number throughout this whole thing, and there's a lot of you turning up to these selection days, but don't think you're not being watched. No. Yeah. It's informal at that stage. When, when you go to the interview stage and and your competencies are literally marked, your appearance is probably marked like out of three or something.

43:06

Yeah, but don't think that that's stage two of your, which is your sort of apps. You testing that you can just turn up in a pair of jeans. Yeah, exactly. You want to look like an airline pilot correct? And even again we could say more about appearance but I think that sums it up pretty well.

43:22

Yeah. Well I got a sort of story about the simulator assessment phase which I'll maybe save do we okay into that? But yeah. So stage 2 you being assessed, there may be a coffee, they might like, splash out on a coffee for you and they might have like you said they these these stages cost money.

43:40

So they've pulled a pilot off a light off the line, or a couple of pilots to interview you as well as the HR. So this is a whole process going across a lot of money. So this selection stage, there may be this selection centre. These kind of people are milling about and they might have a chat with you in the morning about.

43:54

They feel like they have an obligation to you as well. You know, why do you want to join very how great it is or whatever. But they they're looking at you and oh, definitely and if you stand out for the wrong reasons and you might have one of those dreaded, should we just go around the room and have a quick tell me about yourself, even at this stage.

44:13

So you might be far away from getting to an interview stage, but at some point, you're definitely gonna have this, like, you know, where you're supposed to say, I'm Adam from Derbyshire. I'm one of the A320 at whatever airline nobody likes that and you might have to go first or whatever.

44:28

So have that obvious leave as well, what you're gonna say? Yeah, and they'll be looking at you, and they might try and there's some stage layer you in to a chat as well. So have be conscious of the the kind of dialogue, you're gonna have, or come on to that so yeah, I yeah.

44:43

Well we could talk about now because I think that does happen. So so now that interviews have moved to this kind of competency evidence, you know, evidence-based objective kind of style of interviewing, I still think that from a pilot's point of view, there's still a need for that. Get to know you.

45:00

So I imagine for most selection processes that will happen at some stage but like, in disguise. So possibly if you get onto a simulator assessment at the final stage. So I remember one of my simulator assessments, we were told to meet at like midday, so as at the meeting point of midday myself, the other Canada and the, and the trainer or the assessor.

45:24

And first thing he said was like, oh yeah. So we're not actually in the simulator till half past one and I was like, oh, so we're just gonna get a coffee and have a chat about, you know, what's coming up and, you know, be quite easy to be like, oh, he's a nice guy.

45:38

Let's gonna have a coffee and you know, you know chew the fat on like the world of aviation, but actually I think it was basically a get to know you interview in disguise. You know. He's he's saying, is this is someone I I with this. Is he just, is he just a good egg like, you know, good egg.

45:55

Yes. Oh alright. Then Sam. So what's the right way or the wrong way to do that then? Well, should you be like really cheesy? Like, you know, no, I think yourself or what? I think should be yourself. Really anything? She shouldn't do. Well, yeah, don't don't. It's like off anyone or anything because you don't know who knows, who, or who's maybe flown?

46:15

You know, don't stay, yeah, don't slag off your previous airline. Don't just, just be a nice good person for me, generally positive. And that's a personal opinion I think. But I wouldn't say negative stuff about your previous airline and not so much, dont slag enough individuals but just, yeah. Sorry, like you said, like a positive person because pilots I really don't want to.

46:40

I would really like to distinguish myself in this category but pilots in general. Just moan constantly. Yeah. And the happier they are the more they moan. No or the say that's naturally. When you bump into another pilot, what you're gonna do, how's things? Oh, to this. And that this is really rubbish.

46:57

Yeah. You won't believe this airline has done this to me today. Like yeah so here all time. So I mean I guess even if it's not the wrong thing to do it's a missed opportunity to talk positively exactly to the person but it's not about you sort of then bragging about your CV or something.

47:13

No no it's it's a fine balance. You don't want to come across too strong. Want to be a listener as well. Yeah, exactly. So that will happen at some stage. Like you say, this is a funnel of of dwindling numbers. And I mean obviously so they're gonna by the time they get to the last stage which maybe a simulator assessment.

47:34

They've invested a lot in you to get to that stage and the failure rate at that stage is low but you still people still fail that stage. Yeah so rewind slightly. You pass you a selection and you got in and out the building without anybody really like noticing your dodgy haircut or something.

47:53

Right? And you've gone through aptitude testing which is computer-based testing. Basically again so yes there's a multitasking test but there will be like a mixture of hand eye coordination memory. Yes, it's like a guy holding a stick person, holding a ball in what hand is it? Because he's upside down back to front just really random stuff like that, and which helps him draw a graph of your cognitive skills.

48:20

Maybe you get your arithmetic sort of mass test verbal reasoning test, maybe even numerical tests and then distinct from that. I see that that the interview and group exercise are another stage and even if they did happen to be on the same day which would be unfortunate. I think, but an interview with a line pilot and HR person, 45 minutes, maybe.

48:44

Yeah, one of them writes And furiously, while the other one nods or looks at you down faced, then a group exercise with your other applicant candidates. Yeah. Something like we've landed on the moon and we're stuck and can either like take the shotgun or the jet fuel crystal equipment to try and be the survive like eggs.

49:06

I don't think that's an actually exercise. Like, there's aliens on the other side of the moon, but something like that. Anyway, definitely we should talk at length about group exercise, just later. I think there's a podcast for each stage of selection. Pretty much really, that'll keep us busy then.

49:19

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Simulator Assessments

Yeah and then at the end there may be potentially less if you're a cadet who's not expected to have any flight experience but maybe maybe not. And but for a direct entry pilot, there will be a simulator assessment at the end. Yeah. Yeah. I mean when I was applying for like a kid at position, I had a PPL but regardless I had a simulator assessment where I had to fly with the assessor who's a training captain to just asking me to do?

49:44

Like 45 degree bank turns? Yeah level flight, I don't know. I think he did the thrust. Leave us the whole detail. Yeah but more than checking my flying ability which they were going to go on to train. It was, am I able to learn in the environment that I'll actually go into so much.

50:01

The closer to what I said of an ideal selection process where you actually in the flight dead job training with pilots around you. Yeah. And in that environment, they still more important to them than my straight and level. Sorry, my level turn skills or whatever was my non-technical attitude and skills.

50:21

So the trainer gave us a briefing beforehand. Did I sit up and take notes and ask questions and resolve anything? I didn't understand when I was given feedback in the exercise. Did I receive that and improve the second time around? Or did I dismiss it like? No, that's not what was wrong.

50:39

And again, I was being watched. Did I turn up in jeans? Is that what you're gonna say? So yeah. So so I had. So, you mentioned, usually, when you get to this latter stage, a selection, maybe a simulator assessment that you're almost there like they have a quite low failure rate, but it's, you know, it's still possible to fail.

50:56

And I remember all of my final stages of selection, someone who I had been with through a lot of the phases before I'd seen them at previous phases, and they turned up as you said in genes and like a polo shirt and I was like, I was stunned. I was like, that's weird.

51:13

Like why wouldn't you just turn up in a suit? Like but they, they're attitude was like, oh well, the statistics say that only eight percent of people fail the last day. Say, you know, when any there like you know, what's welcome to the eight percent. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's all exchange details and we're on our way to train, right?

51:28

Yeah. And he actually failed that final stage eventually he repeated it I think six months later and got in but maybe learn from his mistakes but just emphasises the point that you are being assessed the whole time, appearance personality, general chit chat. You for from the moment you make contact with this airline or flight school, you are under assessment until until the moment, you've been offered the place.

51:55

And yeah, like some airlines like flight training Adelaide cadet scheme used to have flight grading where until you went solo or your first 20 hours was actually a final stage of selection. But of course, the broader point that, if you're going into a flight school, that's not associated with an airline or is there's no guarantees.

52:14

Your whole training is going to really be a stage of selection, and you're the impression that you give off, during that has to be professional, you're not whinging, and moaning, which is obviously a whole nother point, and then also. But any job you first, six months is always probationary.

52:31

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Anyone Can Pass

Anyway, the selection never really ends, and they're always sort of watching and they want you to embody that professionalism in every regard, especially your appearance. Now I did say like the best thing about you know the best thing about the selection is that you don't need academic qualifications and you just need to play this game and see it as a hurdle, and it's some familiar and, and a bit weird, but that's the best thing, you know, it doesn't matter who you are, what your background is, where you've come from.

53:00

You might not think that you look like, what your idea of pilot is, your background isn't suitable. Nobody cares. If you are gonna pass these stages of selection, then you're gonna be an airline pilot. You're gonna be what an airline pilot looks like. You need to decide whether or not you can be an airline pilot.

53:17

Don't let this selection process. Be the thing that deters, you, your the idea of the monster of this selection process. See that it's the game and the hurdle that you're overcome, and then you make the decision that you can do it. Now rejection is the price of entry. Most people that I came across had failed, their first stage of excuse me.

53:37

Their first attempt, a selection and gone on to reapply now. If it's true, that motivation is one of the biggest factors that they're selecting for better evidence, then I came straight back, six months later when I was allowed to reapply and I've reapplied, so more, you know, don't take it personally and it's a game that really you might have to fail the first time around or cut yourself lucky.

53:59

If you don't fail it, the first time around and definitely don't let that then dictate the rest of your life. Like I'd I didn't I had to go but I didn't I didn't get in. It is just a strange weird statistical, you know, actuarial exercise that you need to see your way through.

54:16

But that does include the nuances of how you how you look and how you behave and what you, you know, the professional standards that they're looking for. Because employability is a thing managers spend like 80% of their time managing 20% of the people they say. So, they're looking for that good egg that will just go on to be a, no nonsense pilot.

54:38

But their biggest fear and what the selection design for is this, that you will pass your training and go on to keep passing the standards and the training that the airline works works with. And so that's what the statistical exercise is all about. And it's a horrible process. Airline selection.

54:57

Yeah. But not, but not an impossible one. No. And always worth the hard work required to pass it. Exactly say much more to come on that, I think. Yeah, I think we could do more on each face, really? But as an overview, basically what you've just said, but then the three hours research, replicate repeat and just keep thinking about evidence all the way through.

55:22

I mean, it's just a hurdle to overcome, Nobody gets there alone. Every pilot I've ever spoke to is before they became a pilot rang and pilot who talked their ear off about their job and so on. And so you and I both had that experience. If anybody listens to, this wants to ask a question or whatever, then all you got to do is get in touch because that is the only reason we're doing this podcast.

55:45

Is that say that if you have that realisation, that you do want to be a pilot, but there's a bit of a hurdle there in front of you just come and talk to us. And we're only here to share our experiences. And I want to encourage you that this industry is worthy of your effort.

56:02

It takes a bit of effort, but I'm certain that it's the best job in the world agreed. All right. Yes.

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Airline Pilot Selection Adam Howey Airline Pilot Selection Adam Howey

Why do you want to be an Airline Pilot?

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Intro

00:02

Adam Sam. Why do you want to be an airline pilot? You want me to tell you all about why I want to be an airline pilot? Yeah, you could do. You probably answer that question. Quite a lot of times over your career formally and informally. Well, each talk about in an interview or in a written application.

00:23

Yes, exactly. Yeah, let's go back. I can tell you all about the magic of aeroplanes and yeah yeah. Do you want to hear that? Yeah, yeah. Tell me all about that. I don't think that's what you get. No what? What you want to hear. Well, it's the question. It always comes up.

00:38

Probably the most difficult to answer, but it's generally gonna come up early and it should really be your best answer. I agree is the only question you know that you're gonna get asked. Yeah. And if you're already a pilot and you're a direct entry, applicant is the variant of that, why do you want to work?

00:57

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Your Childhood Dreams

For us is the only question, you know, you're gonna get. Yep. So do these airlines want to hear about your childhood dreams and how much you love? Aviation how you got posters on your wall, and look at the birds and think, you know, it's a magical thing to fly.

01:15

Is that what they want to hear? There's definitely wrong ways to answer this question here, I can't tell you the specific right way to answer that question, but they're definitely you and I have read and listened to some very wrong ways. Yeah. And I feel quite confident just to say that.

01:34

Yeah, I agree. I think a ‘why’ question, I think the FBI say that one puts you on the defensive straight away, right? I think it frames people's response in the wrong way. If the airline or the flight training organisation was to ask you. What do you like about the idea of being a pilot or how are you working on becoming an airline pilot?

01:59

You would answer very differently. Yeah. Yeah. Why question? And that particular question. It's like you're on the Oprah Winfrey. No bad example. I don't know what's the reference these days like Parkinson and someone's, you know, this is your life. Someone's asking you like, why do you want to be a pilot?

02:16

And we're all gonna listen to like your most intimate feelings about why you want to be a pilot. That's what the question makes most people including me. Well, yeah, want to say, but I think what you're suggesting is a different response. We'll get you further than telling the interviewer about.

02:39

I don't know how you feel. When you see an aeroplane. Yeah, I I think a good point there, which I hadn't really thought about when anybody asks you why something. Yeah, you're right. You always on the defensive, why you doing that, why, why is he don't like that? He's kind of like an accusation, like why why do you want to do that?

02:57

Why do you want to be an airline pilot? But there is something about it. That makes you think you're supposed to tell this child, a story or at least a certain percentage of people feel like they have to tell this child a story and we would like to get away from that because there's nothing wrong with that.

03:14

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Evidence and Competencies

But this is an opportunity. When you're saying that interview or you're doing your written application, this is an opportunity for you to give a different answer. So my I actually wrote down how I would for the listener thinking about answering this question. Change the question in your head, to maybe what evidence do you have to show that you want to be an airline pilot would be a better way of the same question, effectively?

03:41

It's all about evidence, isn't it? We always talk about the evidence. Well, what are you getting out? And then so I'm getting at. Tell me about evidence evidence. Well, evidence is, is the why like, you know, what have you done? Why why do you have what's been airline pilot?

03:58

Because I'm passionate about it, but this is what I've done to show you that. I'm passionate about it, I've done this and I've worked at works here and work there and research this and and done that. And that's that's, that's the hard evidence to people side by side. And interview asked, why do you want to be airline pilot if they talk about their childhood dreams and how they feel about?

04:19

When I see an aeroplane and posters on their wall, that's not evidence. And you could have somebody that really does want to be a pilot and somebody that's never even considered it give that same answer. And as the interviewer, you wouldn't be able to tell who's telling the truth.

04:32

What posters did you have? I probably did have some places. I can't remember really, I had an aerial photo. Yeah, I just remembered that think I had like some VFR charts like and stuff on the wall every long time. Well I think we can be even more specific than what you're suggesting.

04:49

Well. Okay, there is an old fashioned idea of an interview and there is, what is exceedingly, more common now, which would be a competency based interview, or even a behavioural interview, which is maybe a slight variation. The point being that the recruiter, the airline the flight training organisation are looking for competencies to take off and your job is to give them evidence that demonstrates.

05:24

You have that competency rather than using this as an opportunity to tell them about the moment. You realised you wanted to be an airline pilot the let's call it flight training organisation looking for future airline pilots and they are actually list the things that they're looking for and this is just another opportunity for you to demonstrate with evidence that you have.

05:49

Those things that they are looking for and that is the way that I would go about answering this. And all of the questions is, I would know what the competencies are in advance, what the behaviours that they're looking for, and even this question, which is not worded as a competency.

06:07

Type question, what's a competency type? Question example Sam. So you could say give an example of a time that you've led a team. Yeah I think they always start with giving example of a time. Tell me about a time, their competency style questions. Yeah. So you might have an interview with nine of those but you can guarantee this one will be at the front or the end of the interview.

06:29

Why do you want the job? Why should you have the job? Why do you want to work for us? Why do you want to be an airline pilot? But don't be deceived. This is a chance for you to provide evidence essentially to get marks on a tick sheet that demonstrate you have the competencies that they're looking for.

06:49

And without going and reading the job adverse of a recent airline recruitment or flight training, organisation or or a sponsorship, or anything like that, I can guarantee one of the, if not, the biggest thing that they're looking for is motivation. Enthusiasm, definitely, because you can train a lot of the skills to become an airline pilot.

07:18

It said that you can train nice people to become airline pilots but you can't train airline pilots to be nice people. So you've got to have the right person from the start, the motivation. The enthusiasm is something they're looking for, believe it or not there are people that wake up and think I want to be an airline pilot and then might not actually be able to see through the journey that it takes and to become an airline pilot.

07:43

It's not, you know, rocky. But you know, you need to, there's a lot of days where you need to. There's a couple of years of knuckling down to meet the steep learning curve, that it takes. And my point is, I think that's one of the biggest fears of hiring ab initio pilots.

08:00

I pilots, I haven't done any training yet is how do they prove that they really, really want this. So in your why should you be an airline pilot? There's a long list of competencies that you can try and give evidence for there, professionalism, teamwork, communication, all sorts of things, but I guarantee the one that you can really tick off or at least, you know, is going to be, there is motivation.

08:23

Enthusiasm definitely yet. So, yeah. So you can almost reword the question like that. Yeah. You know, give an example of the motivation, you have to become an airline pilot. Think of maybe the question in that terms. I mean, if you're offering a, some kind of sponsorship or sweet deal in any way, yeah, it's gonna be people who just happen across the advert, and apply.

08:45

So how does a recruiter I don’t usually use that word, recruiter. How does the, you know, the HR department of the airline separate the chances, from the people who have spent the last five years, making decisions about their schoolwork about their work experience about their part-time jobs. They've been making these decisions all towards becoming an airline pilot versus the person who just thought.

09:11

Let me Google airline pilot. Oh, this company's didn't sponsorships where we're along the process. Is this question likely to appear? Do you think were how many times we're going to see this through an average selection process? I think, I don't think I've done an interview where they haven't asked a version of this question, right?

09:30

No. However, every selection process I've done has begun with some kind of written phase, which has the same question in it. And why do you want the job? Basically. Yeah, he often has to answer twice and a problem is often in the interview. They'll then refer back to your written questions or they will just quickly read your written questions before you take your before you take your interview.

09:57

The thing is about evidence is that what what, what evidence we necessarily going to have, you've not worked as an airline pilot before, but another way to frame it is, what do you know about the job? You know, how do you know what you're applying for? Yeah, what does a day as an airline pilot look like to you?

10:19

How? What is a good day as an airline pilot look to you? So how are you gonna prove to the recruiter that you even know what you're replying for? Exactly. So the written answer is is an opportunity to show off your your knowledge really as well isn't it? Rather than yeah, rather than just sort of stating that you really want this job, you actually, you know, it's an opportunity for you to put down in words, your evidence, your motivation, your research, what, you know, about the job already.

10:49

Does that differ getting to? When you get asked it verbally? Not really, I don't think. But I think probably when you get asked it verbally, you've got less time and so you've got to really to coin a phrase from you like more more, steak less sizzle, all mouth and no trousers?

11:09

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you've got to, I well. Okay, let's go back to where you began this before. I took us on the tangent. Okay, so we've this, we've you and I happen to have read maybe a lot of wrong ways to do this. Yeah. All right. Give me an amalgamation of a wrong answer that sticks into in your mind of 200 words.

11:29

Why do you want to be an airline pilot? Okay. I have wanted to be an airline pilot since I was a young boy. I wanted to the flight deck and saw a great view out of the window of the mountains. And I thought this is the job for me since then I thought about this job and career a lot and I've done everything, I can towards becoming an airline pilot Every day.

11:59

When I see a plane in the sky it makes me think. Wow, I'd love to do that job. It must be a really great career and I just couldn't wait for the first opportunity to apply. Okay. Well, I was lovely. Now. I think you're being kind because I've read.

12:18

Oh yeah, Ive read worse for sure. Yeah, one day I was in the garden and I looked up and I saw this shiny object in the sky and I said, mummy what's that? And she said that's a plane and people fly those and that's when I knew, now, mine's quite funny.

12:37

But both of these answers have something in common which is they provide? No evidence. No, it might be people, I mean there are like shows but it's passionate. Yeah, there's people out there who want to listen to your, you know, intimate feelings about your like goals. There's probably six of them in the world, right?

13:00

Everyone else is busy pilots. Yeah. And they're very risk averse. They do not want to hire the wrong person thing. If they need 10 pilots, and they've got a thousand applicants, they know that all 1,000 of you are going to be passionate, otherwise, you wouldn't be here. So, it's, it's differentiating between those that are passionate, which you all will be to, actually, who's got some evidence that they're passionate.

13:24

And who's done, you've done some work, who's motivated? Who's, who can shine me? Give me an example. Then some like you and I start an airline today and we want a sponsor somebody to be our first pilot. Okay. Let's just imagine what what's this person done? Except they're not being a pilot before.

13:43

Yeah, okay, okay, tell me what this magic evidence is so it doesn't need to be anything you like you say it doesn't need. They don't need to have had time in a jet before but think little things like I'm thinking back to our own CVs, you work an airfield, any sort of part-time job, that is related to aviation and just getting close to aeroplanes essentially dispatching, bad bloating working on check-in customer services, anything like that.

14:14

But it doesn't even have to be a job in aviation, just a job shows that you're actually hard work, as evidence of hard work, you know, motivated to, you know, whatever you've done within that job. You know how to be flexible, had a good attendance, even that is this, you know, a little bit of evidence in there, but trying to give relatable evidence, we talked about voluntary work, academic academic.

14:39

Yes. So you might have studied a degree in aviation or aeronautical, engineering, even you could probably even if you were coming straight out of college. You could say well I tailored my A levels to what was recommended as the best for becoming an airline pilot mathematics physics, English geography, those kind of subjects.

14:58

So if we, if we had like the ideal candidate, no, not the idea if we had somebody with a very easy CV to read, like they were in the, a typical, they're in the air. Squadron they studied aviation at university or aeronautical engineering. They worked as a dispatcher and now they're applying to this program.

15:18

Plus they worked for us as a volunteer last year or something like that. Okay, great. There's a lot of evidence for motivation there. And we might be looking for communication, let's say, and teamwork as well. We've put that in our advert. And so during this and so they could also use those examples just to give examples of evidence of communication and teamwork but double bonus.

15:45

Those examples are also extremely relevant. So you've given a list of things that give strong evidence of your motivation of why you want to be an airline pilot just to flip the coin, to the other side, a lot often. The people are quite young, they've not had all the opportunities to get exceedingly relevant work experience.

16:05

But what I guess you're saying is it doesn't have to be. And, you know, you might have worked in Tesco or Morrisons in the bakery Sam. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've just found my list actually of what I wrote down as evidence. So we talked about previous employment, but I've got here education, subjects, any volunteering work.

16:26

Even spoke to someone spoke to an airline pilot. That is evidence that you are motivated or that's exactly what I wanted to get to. How do you relate your decisions to the job? Right. How do you know what the job of an airline pilot is? Yep. So you've got to tie together your evidence with what you actually know what you're applying for.

16:48

Yeah. Yeah. Because the job advert, you know, for a barman might say, serves drinks makes cocktails cleans the bar cashes up or something kind of tells you like exactly their different roles, but their job adverts for airline pilots, they normally say what a pilot really does just as desirable person should be a bit like this and like that.

17:09

Yeah. So as anybody ever contacted you to ask, I want to be a pilot. Can I give you a phone call? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've had quite a few students. But I've also had like, you know, friends of friends children of emails or in fact, my plumbers son, who is 16 and is keen on being an airline pilot, he spoke to me.

17:36

So what do you tell them? Yeah. Well what did they ask? You asked what the job was like? Is it a worthwhile career? And what are the benefits? What are the downsides really sensible questions for 16 year old really well, what are you expecting? Well no, but you know, along the right light, he was asking along the right line of not only does he want to know for himself but he will be able to use that in evidence in an interview.

18:03

I, you know, I gave him some knowledge that you wouldn't get, you know like like you said the the application form doesn't say be able to fly an ILS approach and, you know, be able to perform a rejected takeoff. You know, it doesn't specifically list the tasks that you'll be required to do.

18:17

So, he was asking me about what the jobs like and so what could he do with? What did you tell him? Lots of good stuff because I, you know, as you know, you love it. I love this job but I did give him. I wouldn't say for me, they're not downsides, but they're things that you need to consider, you know, things like working at weekends working over holidays Christmas like I say, for me, not downsides, but definitely considerations possibly working abroad and so, at least, he will be able to go one day maybe into an interview and say I've spoken to it as you know, as evidence.

18:50

I spoke evidence was motivation. I spoke to an airline captain. He told me this about the job and that about the job. And this is a really good thing and this is what I'm looking forward to. Because he told me that this is what it's like, you know, that that is evidence in a very simple form and so he's got evidence that he spoke to you which is is his form motivation.

19:10

But also let's say he works in the bakery at Morrisons which if you don't know is a supermarket chain. Yeah. Sam used to overfill the doughnuts custom doughnuts. So you know, he might find that his time in part-time employment and he learnt to be a leader on the morning shift and having spoken to Captain, Sam Carley about that and he realises that leadership is a part of being an airline pilot.

19:40

Regardless of whether you're a captain or a first officer, or the most junior cabin crew member throughout the day, the teamwork involves aspects of leadership and you've really enjoyed that in your part-time job and you've managed to learn about it from the manager or role model, you know, from somebody else.

19:59

So speaking to you is evidence but also learning to connect what he now understands about the job with skills, that he believes he has, and then he wants to give evidence for. Yep, say why do you want to be a pilot? Well, having spoken to Sam . He says, you know, although there's big technical aspects to the role of an airline pilot, the non-technical aspects like teamwork make or break the day and and working, you know, part-time in Morrisons, as unconnected as it seems.

20:29

Actually, I've realised, that teamwork makes the the job enjoyable or not. And Sam says that, you know, that's either the most enjoyable or least enjoyable part of the job. So there you go, straight away. You've said a sudden like a great answer, thanks very much. I really like that.

20:44

Yeah, that's good. Say you know you're giving evidence that you perhaps have a skill or certain behaviour and relating it to the job specifically. Yeah and maybe expand that as wide as you can and you know if you're gonna speak to an airline pilot because by the way you will have no problem finding an airline pilot talk to you and you probably won't be able to shut them up and you might regret it.

21:07

If you called me, I'd be like oh yeah. Let me tell you how it's the greatest job in the world. Yeah, for too long you might want to ask in 20 years. What the the job might look like to you? Personally, what do you want to work towards? Well, this particular airline has a long haul and although I realise that might be a longer term ambition, that's something I'd love to work towards or, you know, the idea of being a captain is something toward to work towards or a particular aircraft type because that happened to be fascinated with that or of studied that.

21:39

And that's a way to be quite specific about whoever you're applying to in the same way that if you're applying to a training school in particular, they would hope that you understand a bit about that training school and the route that you're about to take because they want you to be a good airline pilot, but they don't want you to flake out the next 18 months.

21:59

So if you understand the different stages that you're going to go through, yeah, you might be able to espouse are the, this phase apparently is really challenging but, you know, I like that because I had this project at school, that we had a lot of mathematics in that. And that's a bit like the ATPL navigation, or something like that.

22:18

So your demonstrating, you understand the training? Yeah, any path as well until really want to. I don't, if you and I should go on now about why it's the best job in the world. If you ask me, maybe a little bit. But one thing I would say is that at different times of your life and the benefits and drawbacks of the job are different anyway.

22:40

Yeah. So as a young person, what I enjoyed about the job is different to what I enjoy about it now than if you agree. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, for sure. But you don't want to say where you get paid a lot. It's okay to say you travel the world that's quite cliche, all.

22:57

I've always wanted to travel and things like that, but you want to unpack it a bit more. And yeah, they're not you're not giving evidence if you say well I like the staff travel. Yeah of why you should be an airline pilot and everything comes back to the question isn't really?

23:11

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Competency Based Answers

Why do you want to be an airline pilot is, why should you be an airline pilot? Yeah. Why should we hire you as an airline pilot? Why should we throw money at you to become an airline pilot? Exactly. So competency based questions or behavioural questions are often answered in a certain format like Sam.

23:31

And I we talk about C A R. Yes. Which stands for context action Result, star. Same thing situation task action result, but the point is that in a typical competency question, like give an example of time, you've communicated something really well. You will give and 20% context yet, less 20 or 10 to 20 year.

23:56

Okay, say I was working at Morrisons at the bakery and it was bank holiday weekends. So we had twice as much stuff and people had called in sick action. How much percentage of your answer is action? That's gonna be so 60, 70%. So why is action the bigger part of their?

24:13

Because that is the evidence. Yes, so that's where you give the evidence. Yeah. And then result, we lived happily ever after, or I learnt this from their situation. Nice way to round it off. So it's harder perhaps to kind of squeeze that acronym into, why don't be an airline pilot, but still, keep that in mind and I'm sure we'll have a podcast where we talk about the CAR and yeah, method and competency-based questions another time.

24:37

But we're just specifically talking about, why do you want to be an airline pilot but with that method where you give 20% context and mostly action and you round it off? Nicely with resolve and we lived highly every after. Now I don't know, I don't think you should rehearse your answers and you can't you'll never know the questions you're going to get.

25:01

You will know the competencies are going to guess. You're going to get asked question about leadership communication or perhaps, even a lot more specific than that. Like, you know, difficult leadership of large teams or leadership of, you know, they'll be Interview, but you still can't ever. No what question is coming.

25:27

So this is what I wanted to move on to the the kind of not the specifics of the question, but there. Yeah. The okay, the preparation of the question if that makes sense. All right. Yeah. So no, you sorry, I interrupt you, really? Yeah, not really. So this question is coming at least once in your application process, definitely in your interview.

25:49

I mean, I can't think I must have had 10 interviews for different stuff in my career. How many things you've been applying right now? But I mean, like, if any had like three jobs, maybe, I mean, like outside of aviation. Okay. And I, you know, why do you want to work in the morrison's bakery?

26:02

You know, so it's always gonna come over. I remember that far back. It's always gonna. It's always gonna be near the start. Probably, I think. Say. And so the reason for making your best answer is twofold because you know, it's gonna come up and it's an important question. But also in my experience of interviews, if you get off on the right start and the right tone and you just give an impressive first, it just sells you in nicely to your interview.

26:29

If you give a, if you make a mess of your first answer, it can throw you off for the rest of the interview. So it's kind of twofold the importance of that question. I mean, think about it, if, if I start a business tomorrow. Yeah, and I want my first employee, and they can't answer.

26:48

Why do you want the job? Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're not up for it. No. So, you know, this question is coming, we've talked about how to and how not to answer it. So just touching on what you're saying there about the preparation of it. I agree with. You shouldn't be scripted.

27:09
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Preparation

You don't want to sound rehearsed. You want to sound natural but probably a little preparation. Would you say, is this definitely a difference between script it? Yeah. And you answer it in your preparation a thousand times. Yeah. The two are different. There's no limits to the amount. You should prepare for this question.

27:28

No. And if you do as we always teach the is it the socratic? Socratic. I can never remember method. Yeah, I sent essentially talking out loud filming yourself or getting somebody to interview you and hear your answer. Even if you do that a thousand times I can guarantee your answer will differ every single time very slightly by a few words here and there.

27:53

So there is a very real difference between scripted and prepared if that makes. Yeah. And I also that separate this out then let's talk about interviews. Yeah, not to obviously written applications where you will drive there everywhere again. Yeah. The the idea of practising out loud and the socratic method like the brains, got to learn to say this out loud.

28:20

I wouldn't, I would brainstorm over and over again on a piece of paper and I would start to weave in my competencies and the examples I want to give and the things I want to get in and weave into my answer. But apart from that every minute of the day walking around the house driving to work in the shower, on the toilet, whatever.

28:42

As embarrassing as it is, I would be not saying it in my head, not doing it on paper. I'll be saying it out loud. And once you put into practise, there was the way to say it. When she you put your mouth in gear, yeah, it does something to your brain and obviously, that's what you've got to do in the end anyway.

29:03

Yeah. And it's really hard work. I don't know after I've done like two practises or they might have lasted 10 minutes, total I feel tired, but that's how you need your brains life going for it. It was really powerful to me. So I remember this from back in our days at university when we were playing for our sponsorship CTC and I remember you came to interview me for the first time.

29:26

First time anyone had ever done anything like this and I hadn't really been rehearsing my answers out loud and I can't remember what what tool we must have used in those days, but maybe like a laptop that had recording on it or something or maybe just audio recording but you recorded me and played it back.

29:42

I'm sure it was on video. It must have been on a laptop and you played it back to me and I was like horrified at how bad I sounded and how how many ears and ums and how monotone and how I was in a fixed. Yeah, exactly. I listened to yourself.

29:56

It was the biggest, wake up call ever. I couldn't believe how powerful, like, seeing myself like that was and I just remember, you asked me with it again and again, and again, and again, and again, and it was unbelievable. The, the difference when you, when you see yourself and hear yourself actually talking out loud and how you can just improve it by, look at everything, you got to practise out loud Idea.

30:22

And then ideally, you've got to get someone around to interview you and we sort of strain into interview territory now. Yeah, obviously, but we could talk about interviews for a long time, but trying to stick to the wide, you want to be a pilot but then ultimately, you should be.

30:38

I can't even bring myself. You got to be filming yourself on you a new phone and perhaps not for everybody for me, that is cringe. It's horrible, it's awful. But if you watch that back I guarantee you're not gonna slouch again. Yeah, you're not gonna say as many times and so that's what you need to be doing for your entire interview practise that the proof here is that this, this is the question that, you know, is coming and say, this is the one you need to start with and start getting your answer really good.

31:12

But the downside is, it will to degree become rehearsed and that's not what you want and you don't want to fake being real but at the end of the day, you've got to be real. So people need to ask you questions. You've not thought will ask you this question and a slightly different way.

31:31

I guess. If you watch yourself enough times, you might start to see the interview robot and then you like, no, I need the personality back in there. Yeah. But at first, you need to get rid of all the awkwardness. If you have any and you need to get over of all their negative body language and and as well, but more more than that though.

31:55

Practising out loud and listening back to your answer. It's about it's just about rehearsing. You can't practise on paper or in your head so you just got to practise out loud and the 50th time you do. It will be exponentially better than the first and the second time you've done it but it's so tiring and you've got a cram in all your other interview practise.

32:17

So it's the same as the rest of the questions. Apart from this one is a bit of a trick question because it's not really a question about why. And you're not being an interviewed for a magazine about why you became a pilot, no, what we want is utility we want to know why you should be a pilot.

32:37

It's a shame that the airlines and the flight schools can't make it easy for us and just ask us what they really want to know which is what motivation have. You got to be a pilot or rather that rather than rather than leading you down this. Why do you want to be a pilot?

32:51

Yeah, well that's interviews. Become more objective and structured. Yeah, you almost just feel like, well, we're just playing a game. Say again, I just like, you know, we're word match and drag across my words to the other side of the screen and then there's like give you a tick I guess the, the clear the clear there, right?

33:12

Is once you've mastered this objective, task this hurdle of they're gonna, they're gonna ask you this riddle. Why do you want to be a pilot and the answer to the riddle if you, if you get it right? The wizard will open the door on your pilgrimage to becoming a pilot, right say?

33:32

So it's not easy. Everything is not quite what. It seems, you've got to play this game of giving them the evidence so they can tick and mark and say, this person really should be our well, want this person, they should be a pilot but at some level it's like why do we have humans to fly planes and not robots?

33:51

What people crave you can't always put into words. Now you've got to have that person sit down in front of you physically and yeah, actually sometimes now interviews or first stage interviews could be remote. Even you got to get the measure of the person. Definitely, and it might be a person you never imagine would come in the front door and all of a sudden you really want to hire that person.

34:15

Now, whoever's listening to this who knows? They want to be a pilot that's great but you've got to learn to add substance and substantiate that dream, and that's what we're trying to get across. There is a game to be played here. But, you know, there's always room for you to play the game.

34:34

Add the flare that you want to add to it. And that's your chance. You're not trying to fit the mould, you just want to fill in as much mould as like they want the foundation. You want to see all of that's there. And then on top of that, right?

34:49

You're going to bring the real person. Yep. Which a lot of people aren't able to do because they're so nervous or they haven't managed to fill up that foundation and then on top of that, you played the game of the competitions for you worked out the riddle, which is the question.

35:03

Why'd you want to be a pilot? You've actually answered with all this evidence. And on top of that, here's the real me, okay? Because I'm giving all these answers with the passion. The enthusiasm the motivation. They're so sincere that you wouldn't be able to, even be able to do this in a, in a, like, on a tick sheet or something like that.

35:22

Yeah. Because we're gonna hire this person and we can't get rid of them, right? Because you can train, nice people to be pilots, but you can't train pilots to be nice people. Once we hire a decade, we're stuck with a dick head and this is your chance to show them that I'm real.

35:38

I'm sincere. I'm the real deal. However, you want to articulate that. So, don't fall at the first total, which is thinking, this is a chance for you to talk about how when you're a child. You, you know, had you. Well, you watched Topgun and that's led you to this interview today.

35:58

Think about how this HR person and this pilot that's come off the line want to see that this person. Now of, you know, this is the neighbour, they always wanted the person who has done everything they can to give themselves the best chance today, and why lovely person that we'd love to mould into our employee.

36:18
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Why are you an Airline Pilot? 

Yeah, perfect. So, you need to speak to a pilot. I love that. I love that side of the job and just not have not. I still after 13 years of flying, I the day, the roster comes out is very exciting for me. I love seeing my roster and just seeing what, what I've gotten, where I'm going and what I'm doing, and who I'm with which, you know, do I recognise any of the names that I've flown with before?

37:39

That'll be a great day out. That'll be cool because that's a late start, or I'll be good because that's a night in wherever Madrid, that will be, they'll be fun because it's a long flight. And, you know, I like going there because the views are great. And I like the people there and I like the coffee there, you know, just anything, just all that.

37:59

Sounds like you just love it all. Well, yeah, but but never easy thing on day. Well, if I've got the stuff planned and stuff, but I just I guess I'm so made out like my favourite part is reading my roster which is done, which is no. I mean that is my worst part is the variety.

38:15

I just love the variety. Basically, I love the variety of the job. So if somebody asked you that and got that answer, they could get so much out of that. Even if they disagree with it, they don't think. Well, I'm, I like stability by understand that, you know, you can see that or look for variety.

38:31

Yeah, I think what you touched on might be the best thing for me, which is it's either the best job in the world. All the worst job in the world and the differences, the people that you're working with. Yeah, which changes every day. Yeah. So when they ask you when they give when the deer interview really, they're looking for somebody that you could be locked in a telephone box with for eight hours and still want to go for a drink with afterwards.

38:58

Like, you know, yeah, this is guy. You that sort of person. Yeah. And I think yeah, the cabin crew and the pilots are working with either make it the best day out or the worst day out. But like I said, as I've got older different things of meant more to me, and I think being able to earn a reasonable salary, but go home and be totally switched off from work.

39:22

I don't think about tomorrow, I don't look at the weather. Even I don't think about where I'm going. I don't worry about sales targets, I don't worry about monthly this that I don't worry about year end, you know. Yeah, don't worry about Clive and Sandra breathing down my neck.

39:38

Oh yeah, compliance reports, nothing. So to have a job and where the objective is clear. I have to get the passengers from A to B. And, you know, if you've done a good job or not because safety being the first priority is very obvious, if crashed. Yeah. And you go home and really the definition of a professional is nobody's gonna call me on the way home and say, why did you that?

40:05

Why do that? It's got to be exceedingly, bad. I mean, I could divert the aircraft and still nobody's gonna call me and go. Why did you make that decision on the day? It's up to you to act safely and efficiently If you're driving home anything. You know what I acted indifferent today that's on.

40:22

You you got a debrief yourself and tomorrow, you get to act as a professional. If all go home switch off and not what you know the job is either done or it's not done. So that makes sense. Definitely say why do you want to be a pilot as far as I'm concerned?

40:40

I'm sorry but it's the best job in the world and I had high expectations about becoming a pilot and it definitely exceeded all of them you say and so hopefully we've given listeners some ideas that they could use but also the way to answer this question and the fact that they know it's going to come up, they know it's going to be there.

41:02

Hopefully we've we've given you some suggestions and ideas. There's no right way to answer this but it's definitely, it's definitely a wrong way. Yeah, exactly. And down, right? We have say. So hopefully you'll find that useful. Cool. Cheers.


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